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Pandering to other cultures beliefs through some guilt

cullennz

Banned
cullennz
Joined
Sep 21, 2006
Messages
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NZ
Apologies in advance as this might be too long an OP.

Long story short. Our current annoyingly touchy feely govt, led by every other countries poster child leader Jacinda has decided that the Maori view of the world should have equal footing with a concept they call "Western science" in school teachings, in some kind of pandering patronising to the group they are doing it with way.

Putting aside the stupidity of making up the dumb **** term "Western science", like science isn't fricken global.

And putting aside they also want to lift numbers of Maori in STEM fields and they can't see this just makes it stupidly complicated for actually getting a job. We now have this.

Apologies for the rant but geez this govt gets on my tits. And I fully have respect for others choice to believe in stupid stuff, which is why I don't care if others are religious etc, but there are limits.


Auckland University professor resigns over letter claiming Māori knowledge isn't science


A University of Auckland professor has stepped down as acting dean of science after backlash to a letter he co-authored claiming Māori knowledge "is not science".

Professor of Psychology Douglas Elliffe emailed the science faculty to say his role in writing the letter meant his leadership had the potential to "increase division" among the university's scientific community.

Elliffe was one of seven professors to sign the letter published in the Listener magazine last week in response to proposed changes to the Māori school curriculum.

Those changes are meant to put mātauranga Māori (Māori knowledge) on a par with other types of knowledge, particularly Western knowledge.

However, the academics - drawn from biological sciences, psychology, philosophy and education - claimed that although indigenous knowledge contributes to our understanding of the world, "it falls far short of what we can define as science".

The letter met widespread backlash, with the New Zealand Association of Scientists saying they were "dismayed" by it.

Elliffe subsequently emailed the science faculty to say that he had decided to step down.

"I now think that my leadership of the faculty has the potential to increase division and divert attention from the real issues that face us," he said.

"The future of the faculty is more important to me than my own ambitions, although I will greatly miss the opportunity to make more faculty-level contributions."

He said the decision to step down was his and that he hadn't been pressured by the university's leadership.

"I also want to express my deep gratitude for the messages of support that I've had, including pleas for me not to step down, from so many of you."

He said society needed to ensure it fostered robust debate.

"I think there is a journey that society, and the university as its critic and conscience, needs to take towards robust discussion and debate within a culture that doesn't assume disagreement must imply disrespect," he said..........
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theprestige said:
TF is "maori knowledge"?
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as far as I can tell, the sum of the worldview people use in Maori culture.

It seems like this is referring to how we think about sciences rather than scientific questions themselves. For example, in the western sciences, we spend a lot of time researching dick pills.The research is science. But a lot of the assumptions and priority we place on the importance of dick pills rather than non dick pills is culture. And we have a system that leads to so many dick pills researchers.

It also appears to be a translated term from a different Maori term.
 
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Huh? I'm sorry, but what just happened?

Did a university professor decide to rage quit a university?

Let's see...is the NZ government demanding that Maori fairytales about the creation of the universe be taught in science classes?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say they are not.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that most science teachers can safely ignore any claims that Maori fairytales about how the world was created.

There's an idea that you just politely smile and nod sometimes. Obviously this guy didn't get the memo and decided to get a bit of attention and then cancel himself.

Well, okay then....
 
angrysoba said:
Huh? I'm sorry, but what just happened?

Did a university professor decide to rage quit a university?

Let's see...is the NZ government demanding that Maori fairytales about the creation of the universe be taught in science classes?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say they are not.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that most science teachers can safely ignore any claims that Maori fairytales about how the world was created.

There's an idea that you just politely smile and nod sometimes. Obviously this guy didn't get the memo and decided to get a bit of attention and then cancel himself.

Well, okay then....
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Hard to say. Lots of digital ink spilled in the OP screed, but no link provided for anyone to evaluate the claim.

Doesn't seem like the OP is interested in anyone else evaluating this story outside the lens of pissed off reactionary spleen-venting.
 
I agree; the term “western science” annoys me, and I imagine it pisses off the millions of scientists and scholars not from “the West.”

But as senior faculty, putting his name on that letter was a poor choice. Politics is a consideration in his position. Falling on his sword was likely a good move for the University
 
Be nice if someone were actually clear about what's under consideration. Are we talking about traditional superstitions that are being elevated to the same status as empirical facts, without going through the process of hypothesis-experiment-theory?

Or are we talking about empirical facts that come to us via a long tradition of Maori folkways rather than via the "western" process of research-peer review-publication?

If it's the former, then I'd say Kiwi academia has a serious problem with reality versus political correctness, and "civil disobedience" by dissenting professors is probably called for.

If it's the latter, then I'd say it's probably good to not be snobs about "western science", and instead look at the ways in which various other cultures throughout history have gone about mapping reality.
 
theprestige said:
Be nice if someone were actually clear about what's under consideration. Are we talking about traditional superstitions that are being elevated to the same status as empirical facts, without going through the process of hypothesis-experiment-theory?

Or are we talking about empirical facts that come to us via a long tradition of Maori folkways rather than via the "western" process of research-peer review-publication?

If it's the former, then I'd say Kiwi academia has a serious problem with reality versus political correctness, and "civil disobedience" by dissenting professors is probably called for.

If it's the latter, then I'd say it's probably good to not be snobs about "western science", and instead look at the ways in which various other cultures throughout history have gone about mapping reality.
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It's about whether or not the ways in which various other cultures throughout history have gone about mapping reality should be called science.
 
sir drinks-a-lot said:
It's about whether or not the ways in which various other cultures throughout history have gone about mapping reality should be called science.
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Which to me is an unnecessary and counter-productive fight to have. If it maps reality, great! Let's look at how other cultures have successfully gotten some science done without having adopted our preferred scientific paradigm.
 
This seems to be the text of the letter he signed:

In defence of science

A recent report from a Government NCEA working group on proposed changes to the Maori school curriculum aims to ensure parity for mätauranga Mäori with the other bodies of know ledge credentialed by NCEA (particularly Western/Päkehä epistemologies)". It includes the following description as part of a new course: "It pro- motes discussion and analysis of the ways in which science has been used to support the use dominance of Eurocentric views (among which, its as a rationale for colonisation of Maori and the suppression of Mäori knowledge); and the notion that science is a Western European invention and itself evidence of European dominance over Maori and other indigenous peoples.

This perpetuates disturbing misunderstandings of science emerging at all levels of education and in science funding. These encourage mistrust of science. Science is universal, not especially Western European. It has origins in ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, ancient Greece and later India, with significant contributions in mathematics, astronomy and physics from mediaeval Islam, before developing in Europe and later the US, with a strong presence across Asia.

Science itself does not colonise. It has been used to aid colonisation, as have literature and art. However, science also provides immense good, as well as greatly enhanced understanding of the world. Science is helping us battle worldwide crises

such as Covid, global warming carbon pollution, biodiversity loss and environmental degradation. Such science is informed by the united efforts of many nations and cultures. We increasingly depend on science, perhaps for our very survival. The future of our world, and our species, cannot afford mistrust of science.

Indigenous knowledge is critical for the preservation and perpetuation of culture and local practices, and plays key roles in management and policy. However, in the discovery of empirical, universal truths, it falls far short of what we can define as science itself.

To accept it as the equivalent of science is to patronise and fail indigenous populations; better to ensure that everyone t participates in the world's scientific enterprises. Indigenous knowledge may indeed help advance scientific knowledge in some ways, but it is not science.

Kendall Clements

Professor, School of Biological Sciences, University of Auckland Garth Cooper, FRSNZ

Professor, School of Biological Sciences, University of Auckland

Michael Corballis, FRSNZ Emeritus Professor, School of Psychology, University of

Auckland Douglas Elliffe

Professor, School of Psychology, University of Auckland Robert Nola, FRSNZ

Emeritus Professor, Department of Philosophy, University of

Auckland Elizabeth Rata

Professor, Critical Studies in Education, University of Auckland
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To me it doesn't sound like it is going to be brought up in science classes.?

Anyone find what part of the curriculum it will be part of the teaching?
 
There’s some conflicting stuff in all this. For instance if you want to reinforce the idea that science is a process of arriving at reliable knowledge (and not an exclusively western idea) then asserting that none of the Maori traditional knowledge was arrived at via scientific means is… a weird thing to do.
 
theprestige said:
Which to me is an unnecessary and counter-productive fight to have. If it maps reality, great! Let's look at how other cultures have successfully gotten some science done without having adopted our preferred scientific paradigm.
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If it maps to reality, I'm all for it!

As long as we don't promote all of the knowledge of these indigenous cultures, including that which they (understandably) got wrong to the status of modern scientific understanding. From what I know about contemporary humanities departments, I'd be suspect that a bit of that relativistic view might be being smuggled in.

I'm sure that the Maori, like other indigenous cultures, developed a vast body of knowledge via less codified methods. Probably lots of stuff to do with plants (I'm guessing here). We could probably verify a lot of that stuff using modern methods and incorporate it into our modern scientific understating of the world.
 
I remember hearing something on NPR similar to this. I didn't quite grok concept, but as I recall, the assertion was that the scientific method was inherently racist or culturist or something. I think it was referring, in this case to indigenous African knowledge...or rather indigenous ways of examining evidence and drawing conclusions.

I couldn't find a source for that, and I may not be remembering correctly. I was driving on an errand and did not hear the whole program.
 
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