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The behaviour of US police officers

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Darat said:
They wouldn’t have access to a gun so would have HAD to have done something different.

Remove the gun and a world of different approaches miraculously appear and since it is claimed that most USA police will never fire their gun in their entire career that appears to be a good idea.



ETA:Watch the video an ex-UK cop Nessie posted above.
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Yes, the problem with those other options is that they involve the girl getting assaulted getting her throat slit.
 
Darat said:
There was no other way to resolve the situation?
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This is a bad case to go to the mat on. The girl was actively attacking another girl with a knife up close even after she saw police arrive. Cops might -- maybe -- have been able to subdue her by other means after she had stabbed or slashed the other girl, but not before. If the other girl had been killed, there would have been outrage at the cops for not "doing something" when they had the chance.

We should all be outraged at unjustified police killings. But stopping someone who's attacking people with a knife doesn't look like one of them.
 
erlando said:
So.. What you are saying is really, that Danish police aim for center of mass but they are so bad shots that their shots only kill in 20% of cases? Or are you saying that a center of mass shot is less lethal in Denmark than otherwhere?



What is it with the statistics and laws you've been presented with that you don't find believable?
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Are there differences in ammunition types preferred by police in those countries?

Are there differences in how quickly and effectively first aid is rendered?

One could balk at even military fatality rates seeming low, but there's valid explanations aside from poor marksmanship.
 
Darat said:
Or not.
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I'm appalled at police going violent at the drop of a hat, or because their dick is too small, or because someone's skin color triggered them.

But I can also say if my mom/sister/daughter was the one about to be slashed, I would not be advocating "let's all calm down and see if unfolding developments reveal a greater understanding of the situation."
 
bluesjnr said:
You've identified the single biggest issue and easiest fix in US law enforcement.
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So cops should only patrol or respond to calls in teams? Maybe not such an easy fix, if you think about it. And in this Columbus case, it looks like multiple officers did respond.
Police released new information about the case on Wednesday, including two 911 calls, the body-worn camera footage of three officers who responded to the call and the identity of the officer who pulled the trigger.
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https://www.foxnews.com/us/columbus-police-shot-16-year-old-knife-911-calls-body-cameras
 
Bob001 said:
This is a bad case to go to the mat on. The girl was actively attacking another girl with a knife up close even after she saw police arrive. Cops might -- maybe -- have been able to subdue her by other means after she had stabbed or slashed the other girl, but not before. If the other girl had been killed, there would have been outrage at the cops for not "doing something" when they had the chance.

We should all be outraged at unjustified police killings. But stopping someone who's attacking people with a knife doesn't look like one of them.
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I’ve already said that I don’t think the police officer in this instance should face prosecution, and I’m not going to say they should have done something different.

However the reaction to the idea that something other than immediate lethal force can be used has been quite an eye opener to me in how some people can’t apparently even understand that in my country something other than lethal force would have had to be used.

I now think the gun is a crutch for USA police officers - if it is true that so few ever even need to fire one throughout their entire career - I would say it is a crutch that can be removed since it is so infrequently needed. It sounds like the USA could move more to a system of like the UK police - trained specialist fire arm officers.
 
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erlando said:
So.. What you are saying is really, that Danish police aim for center of mass but they are so bad shots that their shots only kill in 20% of cases? Or are you saying that a center of mass shot is less lethal in Denmark than otherwhere?

What is it with the statistics and laws you've been presented with that you don't find believable?
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It was already pointed out by Captain Swoop that Danish stats include things like rubber bullets. So some of those incidents were highly unlikely to be fatal. Other possibilities: they fire less times than US cops, they are more likely to render aide or give better aide to shot suspects, they use less powerful firearms or less lethal ammo (FMJ instead of hollow points). I've still seen no conclusive evidence that aiming for extremeties is common practice in Europe.
 
Delphic Oracle said:
I'm appalled at police going violent at the drop of a hat, or because their dick is too small, or because someone's skin color triggered them.

But I can also say if my mom/sister/daughter was the one about to be slashed, I would not be advocating "let's all calm down and see if unfolding developments reveal a greater understanding of the situation."
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You are also doing it Delphic Oracle!

In my country the police officer would have had to do something different and no that doesn’t mean do nothing and allow the criminal to kill someone.

This is a perfect example of Maslow's hammer.
 
Bob001 said:
So cops should only patrol or respond to calls in teams?
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Yes, two to a patrol car.

Maybe not such an easy fix, if you think about it.
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I've not only thought about but I see it in action just about every single day as I go about my business. It's a case of "you and you are pairing up in that car and you and you are pairing up in that car".

And in this Columbus case, it looks like multiple officers did respond.
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Noted, and I'd like to see the timeline of arrivals.
 
Darat said:
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I now think the gun is a crutch for USA police officers - if it is true that so few ever even need to fire one throughout their entire career - and I would say it is a crutch that can be removed since it is so infrequently needed. It sounds like the USA could move more to a system of like the UK police - trained specialist fire arm officers.
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First, when you talk about the USA you're talking about something like 18,000 independent police departments and sheriffs' offices. There is no national or state or even regional policy. Second, almost anybody who wants a handgun in the U.S. can have one. Anyone any cop encounters might have a gun. Sending unarmed cops against an armed citizenry would not end well.
 
bluesjnr said:
Yes, two to a patrol car.

I've not only thought about but I see it in action just about every single day as I go about my business. It's a case of "you and you are pairing up in that car and you and you are pairing up in that car".
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In departments where single-officer patrols are the standard, it would mean hiring twice as many cops, or cutting the number of patrol units in half. Your locality has made the decision that that's how they want to operate. Others might not have the same budget, or might want more units on the street. It's hardly just a matter of adjusting schedules.
 
erlando said:
So.. What you are saying is really, that Danish police aim for center of mass but they are so bad shots that their shots only kill in 20% of cases? Or are you saying that a center of mass shot is less lethal in Denmark than otherwhere?
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I'm saying neither of these things. I'm saying exactly what I posted.
 
Darat said:
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In my country the police officer would have had to do something different and no that doesn’t mean do nothing and allow the criminal to kill someone.

This is a perfect example of Maslow's hammer.
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Okay, in your country, if police came upon someone actively swinging a knife at someone else, what would they have done that would not have resulted in a victim getting stabbed? Pepper spray, baton, taser or just a tackle might have been deployed after the attack, but what would have prevented it?
 
Craig4 said:
In that exact same situation with the exact same amount of information on scene as the Ohio cop had with that exact same amount of time?
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Yes, the UK cop would have been armed with a baton and a spray.
Shooting wouldn't be an option and only a twenty percent chance of a taser.
 
Bob001 said:
Okay, in your country, if police came upon someone actively swinging a knife at someone else, what would they have done that would not have resulted in a victim getting stabbed? Pepper spray, baton, taser or just a tackle might have been deployed after the attack, but what would have prevented it?
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Yes, these are my thoughts, if a member of the public is being threatened with a weapon, the threat is reasonably likely to end in death of the victim, and the threat is immediate, then the force available to the officer to most immediately and effectively end the threat is appropriate. Any regard to the life and well-being of the perpetrator of the attack is secondary. This is getting into morality, others might think its best to weigh the lives of both the potential victim and the perpetrator, I don't. That's why I think this was a justifiable and appropriate use of deadly force.

The video of the Welsh cops is not the same scenario, no member of the public was in danger. If in the Ma'Khia Bryant shooting she had a knife but she wasn't struggling with and brandishing a knife at another person THEN I would expect police to make an effort to subdue her without using deadly force. If a cop cannot bring himself to risk subduing a teenage girl with a knife, where only they are in danger, without shooting her then I think they should find another line of work.
 
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