Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[Emily's Cat]

So - to address one of your negations above - which locker room (given a choice of "men" and "women") should a transwoman use when she visits her local municipal sports centre?

(Or, of course, which locker room should a transman use in the same circumstances?)

Use the one that other people are most likely to assume they belong in.

Have some self-awareness and use a mirror. If you look mostly like a dude in a dress, use the gents. If you look mostly like a chick in jeans, use the ladies.

 

[LondonJohn]

We'll have to put your claim that scores of medical professionals say trans women are women in the "unproven" pile then

Hahahaha do you know nothing at all about gender dysphoria and transgender identity? Do you know nothing at all about DSM5? Do you know nothing at all about the way that many major national governments (including US and UK) are legislating for transgender rights (and the definitions upon which they decide the appropriate legislation)?

I really do suggest you do some learning.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

On the other hand, it does seem like a pretty direct way to protect women from an increase in sexual violence, at least in prisons. So maybe we should continue the discriminatory practice for that reason alone.

At least until we can figure out how to add males to a female prison population without increasing the amount of sexual violence that goes on.

This begs the question that there is no other way. Throughout these threads I'm continually shocked by the complete lack of intellectual curiosity into this matter.

I am of the opinion that a vast amount of the abuse occurring in all prisons could be addressed if anyone actually cared to make this a priority.

Why should a trans-discriminatory policy be the first option if other nondiscriminatory options have not been explored?

 

[Manger Douse]

Hahahaha do you know nothing at all about gender dysphoria and transgender identity? Do you know nothing at all about DSM5? Do you know nothing at all about the way that many major national governments (including US and UK) are legislating for transgender rights (and the definitions upon which they decide the appropriate legislation)?



I really do suggest you do some learning.

How about you help me learn and post a link from a medical professional and where it says trans-women are women. I hear there are scores of them so it shouldn't be too much bother. Thanks in advance

 

[theprestige]

I don't think that transwomen should be allowed to compete in elite-level sports where success in that sport is at least in part influenced by musculoskeletal and/or cardiopulmonary factors.

So I think that elite-level sport ought to be separated from true rights issues such as locker rooms, public lavatories, or prisons.

Why is competing in elite-level sport not a "true rights" issue?

Why only elite-level sport? The physical safety issues of males and females competing together don't go away just because it's a high school league.

 

[LondonJohn]

Use the one that other people are most likely to assume they belong in.

Have some self-awareness and use a mirror. If you look mostly like a dude in a dress, use the gents. If you look mostly like a chick in jeans, use the ladies.

Aaaaaand, there goes that "comic" bigotry again. "Dude in a dress"? "Chick in jeans"? ******* hell.

"Have some self-awareness" - oh, the irony.....................

 

[theprestige]

So then..... which bathroom should a transwoman use - assuming the regular choice of "men" and "women"?

That's exactly what we're debating.

For me, it comes down to medical necessity. Show me why it's medically necessary for a transwoman to use the women's locker room, and I'll show you which locker room a transwoman should use.

 

[LondonJohn]

Why is competing in elite-level sport not a "true rights" issue?

Why only elite-level sport? The physical safety issues of males and females competing together don't go away just because it's a high school league.

What's "physical safety" got to do with it?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I too find it curious that the status quo of cis women being abused by other cis women is fine and only the abuse committed by trans women is worth worrying about.

This is disingenuous in the extreme.

The abuse of females by females is NOT fine. But it is vanishingly rare compared to the abuse of females by MALES. Transwomen are MALES. Transwomen commit sexual and violent crimes at the same rate as MALES.

Your argument seems to be that because some females sometimes very rarely abuse other females... we should throw open the doors and make it easier for males to abuse females even though males already abuse females at a staggeringly high rate.

Which to me boils down to "male feelings are more important than female safety".

 

[LondonJohn]

That's exactly what we're debating.

For me, it comes down to medical necessity. Show me why it's medically necessary for a transwoman to use the women's locker room, and I'll show you which locker room a transwoman should use.

Why are you making up "medical necessity" as your yardstick?

Were black civil rights predicated on what was a "medical necessity" and what was not? Or gay rights?

Edited by Agatha: 

Do not refer to other ISF members as trolls, even by implication.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Some people are acting as if they have "gotchaed" us because traditionally we used the colloquial terms "Man" and "Woman" as layperson shorthand for dividing the genders.

Rename the restrooms "Penis" and "Vaginas." Problem solved.

I'm on board with that. Hell, I'll even let intersex people with truly ambiguous genitals pick whichever they want.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Why is competing in elite-level sport not a "true rights" issue?

Why only elite-level sport? The physical safety issues of males and females competing together don't go away just because it's a high school league.

Professional sports and public school sports have very different objectives.

School sports, at least in theory, are about educating the student population and should be as inclusive as possible. Elite sports are about pure competition.

The elite athlete is doing a job, student athletes are learning.

 

[Emily's Cat]

No. This is getting ridiculous. Don't ask me again. Thanks in advance.

Fine. I hereby declare all of your appeals to authority to be fallacious and disingenuous, not supported by any evidence at all.

 

[theprestige]

What are you on about? Firstly, the ONS is quoting the UK Govt's definition.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/envi...isthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21

No, the ONS is not quoting the UK Government's definition. It makes a claim about what that definition is. But there is no quotation, and there is no source cited.

And secondly, that definition is precisely the same as that of the "scores of medical professionals". Go look it up yourself if you're that concerned.

This is your burden of proof. Even the ONS doesn't claim that theirs is a medical definition.

In the mean time, you can take it as read that my own definition - which is what I was being hectored for - is that which is givem in that ONS paper. OK?

That ONS paper doesn't actually define "woman".

Have you ever actually seen a medical definition of "man" and "woman"? Because I don't think you have. I don't think you've even seen a government definition that actually references such a medical definition.

 

[Emily's Cat]

So a transwoman should change in the men's changing rooms, huh?

You can't forsee any..... issues with that?

What issues do you foresee?

 

[LondonJohn]

Professional sports and public school sports have very different objectives.

School sports, at least in theory, are about educating the student population and should be as inclusive as possible. Elite sports are about pure competition.

Exactly. (And I still can't begin to figure out how "physical safety" wove its way into this particular issue....)

 

[Emily's Cat]

I suppose I'd rather fall on the side of giving someone the benefit of the doubt when it comes to matter of basic courtesy rather than risking intentionally and repeatedly misgendering a trans person.

And you'd rather risk intentional and repeated assault and abuse of females in order to give a penis-bearer the benefit of the doubt.

It seems that misgendering a testicle-haver that identifies as a woman is a greater sin than a prostate-owner sexually harassing or assaulting a woman. Once again, the feelings of the be-penised are more important than the safety of women.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

And you'd rather risk intentional and repeated assault and abuse of females in order to give a penis-bearer the benefit of the doubt.

It seems that misgendering a testicle-haver that identifies as a woman is a greater sin than a prostate-owner sexually harassing or assaulting a woman.

This is objectively not true, as sexual assault is a pretty serious crime resulting in custodial sentences, meanwhile misgendering trans people is something bigots can do with very little risk of formal consequence.

 

[Thermal]

So a transwoman should change in the men's changing rooms, huh?

You can't forsee any..... issues with that?

(Good job that legislators in the real world can see the wood for the trees though)

We of course there would be issues. Its an issue laden issue, either way.

If an untransitioned transwoman got changed next to me in a locker room, well it is different but whatever. I think that women having a man get changed with them is likely more physically troubling or intimidating.

(Man/male and woman/female usages here)

 

[Emily's Cat]

The right to have their gender identity treated as a characteristic that is unlawful to discriminate against.

Hold on... the human right they're being denied is that of having their internal, subjective feelings affirmed by the rest of humanity?

And in order to grant that "right" to sperm-producers... you're willing to increase the risk of violence committed against women.