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Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

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LondonJohn said:
So - to address one of your negations above - which locker room (given a choice of "men" and "women") should a transwoman use when she visits her local municipal sports centre?



(Or, of course, which locker room should a transman use in the same circumstances?)
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Hey LondonJohn - you never did explain why you're using the National Office of Statistics definition of woman, and not say, the scores of medical professionals - can I get an update please?
 
Emily's Cat said:
Yeah... might be worth considering that she's been 'living as a woman' since right after self-id went into effect in Canada... and has been successfully been using self-id to harass women and to engage in predatory behavior.

Self-id is what allows Yaniv to be a predator and get away with it.

If you want to accept that Yaniv's trans status is sincere, then you must also accept that at least some transwomen are sexual predators that put females at risk.
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Obviously. Trans people are people. People are sometimes predatory. Trans people are sometimes predatory. So are cis women.

Generally speaking, we penalize individuals for bad behaviors. Assigning criminality to broad swaths of populations based on inherent characteristics, like gender identity, is generally seen as regressive.

I've been pretty clear that Yaniv, by all indications, is an abuser of the legal process, prone to violence, and untrustworthy around children. This says a lot about her specifically and nothing about trans people generally.
 
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Ziggurat said:
Acceptable to whom?

It's discriminatory to not let me into the women's bathroom. Why is that acceptable? Why does it become unacceptable as soon as I declare that I'm actually a woman?



What tremendous cost? No such tremendous cost has ever been demonstrated here.

Keep in mind that nobody here is saying that transwomen cannot ever use women's changing rooms.
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So then..... which bathroom should a transwoman use - assuming the regular choice of "men" and "women"?
 
"You can't blame trans-women for the actions of only a few of them. What are they, straight cis-men?"
 
Manger Douse said:
Hey LondonJohn - you never did explain why you're using the National Office of Statistics definition of woman, and not say, the scores of medical professionals - can I get an update please?
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What are you on about? Firstly, the ONS is quoting the UK Govt's definition. And secondly, that definition is precisely the same as that of the "scores of medical professionals". Go look it up yourself if you're that concerned. In the mean time, you can take it as read that my own definition - which is what I was being hectored for - is that which is givem in that ONS paper. OK?
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I don't know, but I would add that many of these concerns are exactly why many crisis shelters often do not require ID. They don't want to turn away desperate women just because they don't happen to have their papers or haven't jumped through the appropriate bureaucratic hoops.

Helping homeless or otherwise vulnerable women get these papers in order is often one of the tasks that staff help with.
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That's fine. But there's a difference between those shelters having the ability to allow entrance to women without ID... and forcing those shelters to allow any male who claims to be trans.

Similarly, there's a difference between giving females the agency to allow males to look at their naked bodies if they wish to... and telling females that they are not allowed to prevent males who claim to be trans from looking at their naked bodies.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
"You can't blame trans-women for the actions of only a few of them. What are they, straight cis-men?"
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I too find it curious that the status quo of cis women being abused by other cis women is fine and only the abuse committed by trans women is worth worrying about. Everything is fine as long as all the unwanted sexual assaults in women's prisons only involve cis women as victims and cis women as aggressors.

And, obviously, the rampant unchecked abuse in men's facilities is fine.

I very much want to live in a society that treats sexual violence seriously, rather than one that just tries to make sure only the "right" victims are the ones getting abused.

The unstated argument here is that transwomen should be thrown into men's prison, which by all characterization by those attempting to deny trans people their rights, is practically sentencing them to serial rape at the hands of men overseen by indifferent authority figures.
 
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Some people are acting as if they have "gotchaed" us because traditionally we used the colloquial terms "Man" and "Woman" as layperson shorthand for dividing the genders.

Rename the restrooms "Penis" and "Vaginas." Problem solved.
 
LondonJohn said:
So - to address one of your negations above - which locker room (given a choice of "men" and "women") should a transwoman use when she visits her local municipal sports centre?

(Or, of course, which locker room should a transman use in the same circumstances?)
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Corresponding to the bio, of course.

In my beloved Atlantic City, NJ USA, transfolk are fairly commonplace. Pretty obvious transwomen have been in public restrooms with me, and it's not any kind of issue. For that matter, women occasionally jump in the men's room if the line is too long at the women's restroom.

If you can line people up in the shower, and you have all innies, and one outie, it's reasonable for the comfort of all to...uh...standardize that a bit. I mean, if a transperson feels like they are in the wrong body (which I have the greatest sympathy for), being in the 'wrong' locker room seems pretty trivial.
 
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LondonJohn said:
What are you on about? Firstly, the ONS is quoting the UK Govt's definition. And secondly, that definition is precisely the same as that of the "scores of medical professionals". Go look it up yourself if you're that concerned. In the mean time, you can take it as read that my own definition - which is what I was being hectored for - is that which is givem in that ONS paper. OK?
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Can I have a link to where one of these scores of medical professionals agree with you and the exact part that backs up your claim. Thanks in advance
 
Some people are acting as if they have "gotchaed" us because traditionally we used the colloquial terms "Man" and "Woman" as layperson shorthand for dividing the genders.

Rename the restrooms "Penis" and "Vagina" Problem solved.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I don't know, but I would add that many of these concerns are exactly why many crisis shelters often do not require ID. They don't want to turn away desperate women just because they don't happen to have their papers or haven't jumped through the appropriate bureaucratic hoops.

Helping homeless or otherwise vulnerable women get these papers in order is often one of the tasks that staff help with.
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There are plenty of organizations to help the disadvantaged get a voter ID, but that is still a non-starter.

When you say you don't know, do you mean you don't know if Canadian law requires the presentation of trans ID on demand, in order to receive trans benefits?

Or do you mean you don't know if you think that's a good policy?
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
The continuation of a discriminatory practice is not an acceptable cost to pay.
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Female safety is collateral damage for trans affirmation then?

SuburbanTurkey said:
I am not convinced that trans exclusion is the only means, nor even the most direct way, to protect women from sexual violence. Given the tremendous cost of trans women incur by having their human rights systematically denied, it's not a justifiable solution.
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What human right are they being denied, and what burden are transwomen faced with?
 
Thermal said:
Corresponding to the bio, of course.

In my beloved Atlantic City, NJ USA, transfolk are fairly commonplace. Pretty obvious transwomen have been in public restrooms with me, and it's not any kind of issue. For that matter, women occasionally jump in the men's room if the line is too long at the women's restroom.

If you can line people up in the shower, and you have all innies, and one outie, it's reasonable for the comfort of all to...uh...standardize that a bit. I mean, if a transperson feels like they are in the wring body (which I have the greatest sympathy for), being in the 'wrong' locker room seems pretty trivial.
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So a transwoman should change in the men's changing rooms, huh?

You can't forsee any..... issues with that?

(Good job that legislators in the real world can see the wood for the trees though)
 
theprestige said:
As far as you can tell is a few sensational news items. For all you know, it's a hobby, a troll persona she dons when the urge to harass people strikes.
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I suppose I'd rather fall on the side of giving someone the benefit of the doubt when it comes to matter of basic courtesy rather than risking intentionally and repeatedly misgendering a trans person.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
The continuation of a discriminatory practice is not an acceptable cost to pay.

I am not convinced that trans exclusion is the only means, nor even the most direct way, to protect women from sexual violence.
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On the other hand, it does seem like a pretty direct way to protect women from an increase in sexual violence, at least in prisons. So maybe we should continue the discriminatory practice for that reason alone.

At least until we can figure out how to add males to a female prison population without increasing the amount of sexual violence that goes on.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Female safety is collateral damage for trans affirmation then?



What human right are they being denied, and what burden are transwomen faced with?
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The right to have their gender identity treated as a characteristic that is unlawful to discriminate against.
 
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