"Psychics" and their tricks and how are they performed

alfaniner said:
Whatever shows up in a photograph for lighting can be very different from how it appears in the actual scene. Your eyes adjust a lot but most of the time you don't notice it.
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well this "psychic" supposedly works in the dark w/only dim candle light, would a camera from the 1970s be able to produce such a photo?
 
Setsurinvich said:
isnt it her left hand doing "funny" things?
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Sure. That is the distraction component. She wants you to concentrate on the left hand while the right is doing the actual illusion. that is distraction. Another common technique of stage magicians. I have no idea why you think there is anything to see beyond common charlatanism. My personal preference is for "close-up" magic, where one can perform apparent miracles before an observers eyes. Others, like David Copperfield et al prefer the foolishly large illusions. That is their preference. It is a matter of style, not reality.

My personal preference is to perform in a small setting where the guest/victim appears to do it themselves without my intervention at all. Even though they are unaware of my intervention in what transpires. They know that I must be interfering at some level for entertainment purposes.

Nevertheless, both I and my father have been accused of being in league with SATAN even though there is an entirely prosaic explanation for what occurred.

In the case you are discussing, the illusion is trivially explained. There is nothing even vaguely supernatural involved. The nature of the illusion has been explained to you multiple times, yet here you are.

So why are you clinging to a supernatural explanation?
 
abaddon said:
S

So why are you clinging to a supernatural explanation?
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I am not, its just that this story for whatever reason had bothered me for a long time and I just want to solve it once and for all, as well with info on the internet for all to see with a detailed explanation of the charlatanism being done. Since you have experience with stage magic, can I ask what exactly was the hand pose that gave it away?
 
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Setsurinvich said:
I am not, its just that this story for whatever reason had bothered me for a long time and I just want to solve it once and for all, as well with info on the internet for all to see with a detailed explanation of the charlatanism being done. Since you have experience with stage magic, can I ask what exactly was the hand pose that gave it away?
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No. You cannot. There is a rule here that magicians secrets may not be revealed.

What are those secrets? I am forbidden to reveal too much both here and in the magicians circle. So I will go as far as I can.

Close your right hand into a fist. Observe it.

Now close your fist about the neck of a coke bottle and observe it's new position.

Do you see a difference or not?
 
Setsurinvich said:
I am not, its just that this story for whatever reason had bothered me for a long time and I just want to solve it once and for all, as well with info on the internet for all to see with a detailed explanation of the charlatanism being done. Since you have experience with stage magic, can I ask what exactly was the hand pose that gave it away?
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I don't really believe you. You have been handed every explanation and reject all of them, why?
 
Setsurinvich said:
I am not, its just that this story for whatever reason had bothered me for a long time and I just want to solve it once and for all, as well with info on the internet for all to see with a detailed explanation of the charlatanism being done. Since you have experience with stage magic, can I ask what exactly was the hand pose that gave it away?
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Oh and you could compare Randi's hands with your guru's hands. Same positions. It is blatant concealment. The difference is that Randi tells you outright that he is making it up. Your guru claims to be channelling vague spirits.

Now it might be that you will revert to the equivocation. Randi has no evedices for his position. What you seek to axoid is that neither do you.

So what should one believe?

That is simple. I will believe in that which has sufficient evidence. Is that fair?

God, whichever what version one might chose, has exactly no evidence at all. None.

Why would any rational person believe in some donkey that does not exist?
 
abaddon said:
No. You cannot. There is a rule here that magicians secrets may not be revealed.
What are those secrets? I am forbidden to reveal too much both here and in the magicians circle. So I will go as far as I can.

Close your right hand into a fist. Observe it.

Now close your fist about the neck of a coke bottle and observe it's new position.

Do you see a difference or not?
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Surely we can open the blinds just a little bit and say the words "fake thumb tip"?
 
abaddon said:
No. You cannot. There is a rule here that magicians secrets may not be revealed.

What are those secrets? I am forbidden to reveal too much both here and in the magicians circle. So I will go as far as I can.

Close your right hand into a fist. Observe it.

Now close your fist about the neck of a coke bottle and observe it's new position.

Do you see a difference or not?
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Correct me but I had assumed the magician's code didn't apply to fraudsters. I know many magicians over the years have made the exception in order to expose them and prevent more people from being suckered in.
 
Setsurinvich said:
but what about my observations on the blood flow ....
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Have you actually been in the same room and seen a psychic healer in action or have you only seen still photos of a performance?

If you have only seen photos, then there is no point asking about magicians do the various hand position tricks, as photos do not show all the various distractions a magician uses to hide their hand movements. :)
 
abaddon said:
I don't really believe you. You have been handed every explanation and reject all of them, why?
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I dont want to reject any explanation,I want to be through so it would never bother me again. its just that this story had bothered me in the past because it triggered a bizarre chain reaction that ended with the Satanic Ritual abuse conspiracy. So I want to confirm with some experts to make certain, as well I probably have an obession with being through and figuring out "what really happened.
 
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Matthew Ellard said:
Have you actually been in the same room and seen a psychic healer in action or have you only seen still photos of a performance?

If you have only seen photos, then there is no point asking about magicians do the various hand position tricks, as photos do not show all the various distractions a magician uses to hide their hand movements. :)
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well the pictures are all the info we have of this "healer" it almost infuriated me in the past that no critical research was done, so i suppose now its the time to do it rather than never.
 
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Setsurinvich said:
well the pictures are all the info we have of this "healer" it almost infuriated me in the past that no critical research was done, so i suppose now its the time to do it rather than never.
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OK.

Firstly, there has been critical research done. It was done by a professional magician and skeptic, Mr James Randi. He both emulates the trick and debunks con artists who pretends it is real to exploit the uneducated.

Secondly, it is almost impossible to explain how stage magic tricks are performed using still photos. Magicians use both hands, body language and language itself to distract, misdirect and so on to perform tricks. ( For example : Guitar tab pictures show finger positions on strings and frets, but not how you change hand positions from one chord to another.)

James Randi on Tonight Show / Psychic Surgery / YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjF1sUZEy2U

Nolen, William. (1974). Healing: A Doctor in Search of a Miracle. New York: Random House. ISBN 0-394-49095-9

Randi, James. (1995). Psychic surgery in An Encyclopedia of Claims, Frauds, and Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural. St. Martin's Press. ISBN 0-312-15119-5
 
Matthew Ellard said:
Firstly, there has been critical research done.
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i am referring specifically to "pachita" which had frustrated me in the past because of the absurd chain reaction she had set off and the outlandish stories told about her which were NOT taken critically until recently, which was too late to do any first hand research.
 
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Pachita used a "rusty hunting knife" instead of just using bare hands. This is a very old, hollow handle, prop trick from movies and stage.
 

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Setsurinvich said:
sigh* i am aware, but even if there was a video of her doing her "healing" it still would have just as much "validity" for debunking as those pictures I found no?
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No. You cannot put a person a trial after they die. They cannot answer questions, as they are dead. A video can be edited.

Therefore you must set out all the alternative hypotheses as to what may be going on and assign probability, like a coroner.
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Hypothesis 1) Pachita was possessed by the spirit of the Aztec emperor Cuauhtémoc and could perform magical surgery although not speaking any Aztec language and performing surgery that Cuauhtémoc never performed using a modern steel knife.

alternatively

Hypothesis 2) Pachita was a con artist using standard stage magic for financial gain.

Which hypothesis do you support?

Ваш родной язык русский?:)
 
Mr James Randi was not lazy

Русское общество скептиков ( Russian skeptic Society)
 

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Setsurinvich said:
I am not, its just that this story for whatever reason had bothered me for a long time and I just want to solve it once and for all, as well with info on the internet for all to see with a detailed explanation of the charlatanism being done. Since you have experience with stage magic, can I ask what exactly was the hand pose that gave it away?
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The basic starting point for all this fakery, BS, "psychic" anything and most alt med is that there is no known biological mechanism by which this can happen (OK, placebo in some of the alt med), aside from deception and fraud.

If or when someone comes up with some plausible biological, chemical, physical mechanisms we can look again (while someone clears up on all the Nobel prizes, the contracts to re-write all the textbooks and the rest).

Until such time, what is there actually to discuss? Unless you are interested in the mechanics of the fakery, of course.
 
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