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Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

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It's not really a rabbit hole I think this thread needs to go down but do we actually know anything about this J.K. Rowling book outside of the fact that "Killer who poses as a woman in a dress" occurs as a plot point at some point in it and the anti-trans controversy is pretty much the only time J.K. has been in news post Harry Potter outside of that reveal of her using a pen-name?

The telegraph reviewed it with an advance copy, gave it 3/5 stars, citing it's excessive length and lacking some of the qualities of the previous, more acclaimed books in the series. It's the 5th installment of a series, so I imagine there's already an audience of fans waiting to buy it, but probably not much appeal to those not already invested in the series.

The book is for sale to the public as of today.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/books/what-to-read/troubled-blood-robert-galbraith-review-jk-rowling-fails-strike/
 
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You seem to support women welterweights fighting male welterweights. Please tell me this isn’t true.

If a female can perform just as well as a male of the same weight-range, then why should they not? I know that the weight-ranges vary between the different sex categories, even if they use the same names. Realistically speaking here i think there are very few females that can, because of physiological restraints, achieve the same level of performance as males in sports on a elite level such as boxing for example.

The whole point of sex segregation in modern sports is supposed to be because it's necessary to give women a chance to compete fairly. How can it then be fair if other women have to compete with those who have been born with the potential to achieve the performance of a man?
 
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Semantic quibbling? Allright then. :rolleyes: Since I have already shown that a fair and level plaing field is an ancient relic, there is nothing left to say.

You have not shown that. You have shown that it is an ideal we can strive for but probably never achieve. But this is already known and accepted. And we still see value in trying to get closer to the ideal.

The only thing left to say is the rest of your argument:

Since the ideal cannot be attained, it should be ignored when considering whether transwomen should be admitted to women's sports. Perfect fairness is impossible, therefore it doesn't matter if allowing transwomen to compete as women makes things less fair for women athletes.
 
It matters that bigoted advocacy legal groups are involved because it's necessary context for why two high school track athletes are somehow a pressing social issue worthy of endless panic mongering and woe about the end of life as we know it.

How many pages are going to spent on the the evils of trans people? The amount of pearl clutching seen on this forum, you'd think trans people were practically the modern day equivalent of the mongol horde on the horizon, rather than an extremely small portion of the population that are seeking minor accommodation. Either it's this story of two high school track athletes in the suburbs, or the the evil of a mediocre MMA fighter, or the horror of a trans woman using a sauna at a pool. HORROR, SHOCK, DANGER, DOOM. WOE BEFALL ALL MANKIND.

The inclusion of the ADF in this story is relevant when it comes to understanding the scale of reactionary backlash to civil right protections for trans people. The ADF goes around the country collecting up horror stories of the evils of trans people, mostly trans women, and tries to drum up panic and fear to achieve their bigoted ends. They whip up the fervor against trans people and blow these issues way of proportion, desperately trying to turn some minor local scandal into a wedge issue to advocate their Christian-supremacist world view on the national level.

Your fallacy is: Appeal to consequences.

I would humbly suggest that so-called skeptics try not to be such willing suckers to these obvious tactics.

I would not-so-humbly suggest that so-called skeptics are well familiar and experienced with these obvious tactics such as the appeal to consequences above.

Perhaps a skeptics forum is not the appropriate place to discuss social issues and who is worthy of civil rights protections. You can't "facts and logic" your way around such problems, and what the divide comes down to here is often one of irreconcilable moral judgement which are not susceptible to a skeptical approach.

You might want to look up the is-ought problem. Several of the claims made were claims of "is" and not of "ought" - such as "transwomen are women." You can't make claims of fact and then say that your claims are "not susceptible" to a "facts and logic" skeptical approach. If you make such claims then you're expected to support them, and failing to do so means the claims get rejected. If you want the claim to be accepted then you'll need to support it, and if you can't do so yourself then find someone who can. The TWAW claim is of a trivial form, again here's what you need to do:

1. Define the set of women.
2. Define the set of transwomen.
3. Show that the set of transwomen is a subset of the set of women.

You might want to keep in mind that the opposing side, the "transwomen are not women" side, has long since met that standard:

1. Define the set of women: a woman is an adult human female, a human is female if SRY/androgen.
2. Define the set of transwomen: a transwoman is a human male who identifies as a woman.
3. Show that the set of transwomen is not a subset of the set of women: Transwomen do not fulfill the SRY/androgen condition for being female, therefor transwomen are not female, therefor transwomen are not women.

Or you can just throw your hands in the air and declare those that don't agree with you as ideologues bordering on religious extremists. You know, the skeptical thing, declaratory ad-hom.

What a display... It's not an ad-hom to (accurately) compare your argumentation to that of a religious extremist. An ad-hom is rejecting an argument based on who's making it. That's what you do, just declaring people transphobes or bigots and on that basis simply rejecting the arguments made out of hand. If you don't want your argumentation compared to that of a religious extremist then make a better argumentation.

A: "Deity exists."

B: "Prove it."

A: "But I really deeply feel it in my heart that deity exists."

B: "Just because you feel that deity exists doesn't mean that deity actually exists."

A: "But if deity doesn't exist then the atheists win and they're evil."

B: "Appealing to consequences doesn't mean deity actually exists."

A: "But my claims are beyond 'facts and logic' and the 'skeptical method' - it is a moral judgement, the atheists are morally evil."

B: "Even if it were the moral stance that deity exists that doesn't mean deity actually exists."

A: "But everyone I know agrees that deity exists. Also, everyone who doesn't agree that deity exists gets 'cancelled' from our in-group. Furthermore the arguments by 'cancelled' people are thenceforth only accessed through second-hand commentary from in-group people and not directly from the 'cancelled' person herself."

B: "Ever heard of self-selection bias? Also, are you in a cult or something? Lastly, that's an argumentum ad populum."

...and so on and so forth ad nauseam.

What gets you taken seriously when you're taken to task to support a claim you made: 1) supporting said claim successfully against questioning, 2) retracting said claim. What gets you taken progressively less seriously when you're taken to task to support a claim you made: 1) piling fallacy upon fallacy for it, 2) taking a page straight out of the crackpot/religious extremist playbook.
 
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It matters that bigoted advocacy legal groups are involved because it's necessary context for why two high school track athletes are somehow a pressing social issue worthy of endless panic mongering and woe about the end of life girl's sport as we know it in a handful of states which allow self-i.d..

FTFY.

Young women in sport is a small part of our lives, collectively, but it can be well-nigh all consuming for the student athletes in question.
 
FTFY.

Young women in sport is a small part of our lives, collectively, but it can be well-nigh all consuming for the student athletes in question.

That's a good question. How many student athletes are actually complaining about this policy? The ADF is representing 3.

Is there any reporting showing how other student athletes in CT feel about this issue?
 
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Amongst themselves or in the full glare of public spotlights?

Either. The ADF managed to dig up 3 litigants, but they are an issue advocacy group that was likely seeking such people out. It's a poor indicator of popular sentiment.
 
I think we're getting further into the weeds in defining some exactly perfect level of even playing field like we're Rick showing Morty "True Level" for the first time then is purely necessary.

Now I'd argue for any 1:1 sports (boxing for instance) if the two parties agree... where's the problem? Where potentially could even be the problem?

Sure more organized group sports leagues gets a little more complicated but we forgetting the elephant in the room. These are spectator sports. The answer doesn't necessary have to be "The correct answer is what people what to watch" but that factor can hardly be ignored.
 
Either. The ADF managed to dig up 3 litigants, but they are an issue advocacy group that was likely seeking such people out. It's a poor indicator of popular sentiment.
I'm unclear on why you think popular sentiment should matter all that much. Female student athletes who compete at the varsity level are a tiny subset of the population, even in high school itself. MTF student athletes even more so.
 
I'm unclear on why you think popular sentiment should matter all that much. Female student athletes who compete at the varsity level are a tiny subset of the population, even in high school itself. MTF student athletes even more so.

It matters whether the majority of women feel that rights for transwomen comes at their loss. Do girls in CT feel that they are being unfairly disadvantaged by this? Do they want trans athletes excluded?

It's a social issue, public perception is relevant.
 
Here is one area where I do agree with the TRAs - I don’t think TW are a threat to women’s sports. Not because I don’t believe that men have a sporting advantage over women, but because I don’t think there are enough TW to pose a threat to women’s sports as a fair and competitive enterprise.

An actual threat to women’s sports would be ending sex segregation and integrating sports leagues. That would virtually ensure that no women would be able to compete at the highest levels of pretty much all sports. Here is an interesting website about this http://boysvswomen.com/#/
 
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It matters whether the majority of women feel that rights for transwomen comes at their loss. Do girls in CT feel that they are being unfairly disadvantaged by this? Do they want trans athletes excluded?

It's a social issue, public perception is relevant.

Okay, most girls would feel unfairly disadvantaged competing against guys in sports for reasons you should intuitively grasp. And, do you understand that a guy identifying as a gal is not excluded from sports by being told he has to compete against other guys? The only ppl who might be actually be excluded are trans boys who are on often times huge doses of testosterone, which they shouldn’t be anyway but that’s another discussion.
 
It matters whether the majority of women feel that rights for transwomen comes at their loss. Do girls in CT feel that they are being unfairly disadvantaged by this? Do they want trans athletes excluded?

It's a social issue, public perception is relevant.

Can we back up just a moment?

I think there are probably some problems that aren't worth the effort of trying to solve, both because they are not widespread, and because they do not cause much harm.

But I still think they're problems. And I still think that it's okay to try to solve them if we can.

And I also think that public perception doesn't serve as a guide to your personal morality. I'm sure there are many things that have had widespread public support, that you regard as immoral or unacceptable.

So before we debate whether this problem rises to the level of social issue that needs addressing, will you please let us know whether you actually think it's a problem at all?
 
Also we can, with fair regularity, count on it being made a problem if it isn't already.

I can within a metaphysical certainty guarantee that alpha males that you couldn't pay to watch a WNBA game now will be the first to post Youtube rants sitting in the cab of the trucks wearing sunglasses about how transgender players are "ruining the game" if it ever happens.
 
It matters whether the majority of women feel that rights for transwomen comes at their loss.
The majority of women in any given jurisdiction may not have any investment (even vicarious or maternal) in women's sport. We need to focus on the (young) women who are being directly affected.

Do girls in CT feel that they are being unfairly disadvantaged by this?
Would it change your thinking if most female student athletes (in some given jurisdiction) actually did feel that way?

I really don't think popular support (or the lack thereof) should much matter, when we're discussing fairness in sport. They primary question is whether some group of people (e.g. males, heavyweights) have a statistically significant advantage due to objectively measurable traits.
 
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