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Trump Sues Bolton over Book Release

Segnosaur said:
If Bolton doesn't think Biden is a valid selection now, then he doesn't really think Trump's corruption is that bad.

Full stop. End of story.

There is no chance that that "the other conservative" Bolton will write in will win the election. The choice is between Biden and Trump. If you don't take every effort to remove Trump (even if it means voting for a democrat) then you are minimizing Trump's corruption.

You either think "A person as corrupt as Trump should not be in power", or you think "Trump's behavior is acceptable because of policy reasons".
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Reminds me of when Sideshow Bob ran for mayor. Krusy the Klown stood in the polling booth, recalling how Bob framed him for armed robbery and tried to kill him several times. "But I'm aching for that upper class tax cut!" Krusty mused, and voted for Bob.
 
Segnosaur said:
I think that says a lot about Bolton.

The man who was SO concerned about how bad Trump's actions were... the man who said Trump should be a 'one term president', is unwilling to vote for Biden, the one action that would be most useful in removing Trump from power. (Not that that one vote would likely make a difference... but it shows yet another failure on his part to respond to corruption.)
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Bolton is smarter than Trump. But just as much of an unpatriotic POS.

Lawrence O'Donnell eloquently rips into both.

 
Segnosaur said:
If Bolton doesn't think Biden is a valid selection now, then he doesn't really think Trump's corruption is that bad.

Full stop. End of story.

There is no chance that that "the other conservative" Bolton will write in will win the election. The choice is between Biden and Trump. If you don't take every effort to remove Trump (even if it means voting for a democrat) then you are minimizing Trump's corruption.

You either think "A person as corrupt as Trump should not be in power", or you think "Trump's behavior is acceptable because of policy reasons".
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If neither major candidate is acceptable, then it is not acceptable to vote for some "least objectionable" candidate. If there is a minimum threshold of quality, and none meet it, it doesn't matter how much worse one is.
 
BobTheCoward said:
If neither major candidate is acceptable, then it is not acceptable to vote for some "least objectionable" candidate. If there is a minimum threshold of quality, and none meet it, it doesn't matter how much worse one is.
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I don't agree with your premise.

But yes it very much does.
 
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BobTheCoward said:
If neither major candidate is acceptable, then it is not acceptable to vote for some "least objectionable" candidate.
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Once again... if a person does not find Biden an acceptable alternative as someone to vote for in a system which is largely a 2 party system, then you are implying that Trump's corruption is not serious enough to warrant removal from office.

End of story. Fat lady has sung. Smoke 'em if you got em.

If there is a minimum threshold of quality, and none meet it, it doesn't matter how much worse one is.
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Biden has never been involved in any significant scandal in all his time in politics.

If that is not enough for Bolton to vote for him, then he is stating that 'extreme corruption is acceptable if you have the right policies'.
 
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BobTheCoward said:
Absolutely disagree. I view that as an incredibly immoral act.

But I'm a deontologist and you are a consequentialist. So we don't even agree on how to measure goodness such that we can debate what achieves that.
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You're right Bob. I care about the consequences. I care about the country and the people in my country. There are things I can't stand about Biden. But I know he cares about the country. He is also qualified. I will always take better. I never expect perfection.
 
Segnosaur said:
Once again... if a person does not find Biden an acceptable alternative as someone to vote for in a system which is largely a 2 party system, then you are implying that Trump's corruption is not serious enough to warrant removal from office.

End of story. Fat lady has sung. Smoke 'em if you got em.


Biden has never been involved in any significant scandal in all his time in politics.

If that is not enough for Bolton to vote for him, then he is stating that 'extreme corruption is acceptable if you have the right policies'.
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From Bolton's perspective, between abortion and communist genocide, he likely views liberalism as an atrocity. I see that view from neocons. In that case, Trump's maladministration and appeasement of some communists IS the lesser of two evils.

You may think he is wrong, but arguing lesser of two evils is an argument for many to vote for Trump. Corruption is relatively minor next to a March to communism (People like Bolton, not me. Communists surprisingly don't offend me).
 
acbytesla said:
You're right Bob. I care about the consequences. I care about the country and the people in my country. There are things I can't stand about Biden. But I know he cares about the country. He is also qualified. I will always take better. I never expect perfection.
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He meets what you think are the minimum standard for competence. This is a discussion about having to vote for lesser of two evils.

When have you voted for a candidate that was going to actively further injure the people you care about, but not as badly as the other person? That also did not meet your minimum standard for competent?
 
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BobTheCoward said:
He meets what you think are the minimum standard for competence. This is a discussion about having to vote for lesser of two evils.

When have you voted for a candidate that was going to actively further injure the people you care about, but not as badly as the other person?
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Again, I have NO IDEA what you're saying. I see Trump destroying this country. I have despised some Presidents in my life and Trump is the only one I think endangers the Republic. I don't think the country can survive another term of Trump.
 
acbytesla said:
Again, I have NO IDEA what you're saying. I see Trump destroying this country. I have despised some Presidents in my life and Trump is the only one I think endangers the Republic. I don't think the country can survive another term of Trump.
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You also think Biden will do better than "not survive to a lesser degree." You are not in the camp of having to make a choice between two unacceptable outcomes.
 
BobTheCoward said:
Absolutely disagree. I view that as an incredibly immoral act.
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Rubbish.

A vote against a candidate that you do not like is a perfectly valid and moral choice. The Lincoln Project, a conservative action group made up of conservatives and former Republicans, advocates exactly this...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...ed-democrat-president-trump-must-be-defeated/

"We’ve never backed a Democrat for president. But Trump must be defeated."

"Today, the United States is beset with a president who was unprepared for the burden of the presidency and who has made plain his deficits in leadership, management, intelligence and morality.

"When we founded the Lincoln Project, we did so with a clear mission: to defeat President Trump in November. Publicly supporting a Democratic nominee for president is a first for all of us. We are in extraordinary times, and we have chosen to put country over party — and former vice president Joe Biden is the candidate who we believe will do the same."

Not voting at all is a gutless choice, and an abrogation of your responsibility as a citizen of your country.
 
BobTheCoward said:
You also think Biden will do better than "not survive to a lesser degree." You are not in the camp of having to make a choice between two unacceptable outcomes.
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I don't buy for second that Bolton actually sees Biden as unacceptable. Bolton is playing a game for other Republicans. He wants his cake and eat it too,
 
smartcooky said:
Not voting at all is a gutless choice, and an abrogation of your responsibility as a citizen of your country.
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I'm going to ignore my general disgust with the thought that citizenship is valuable, has meaning, or incurs any responsibility.


Does your position mean that people like Bolton, who may feel kleptocracy is less bad than the tyranny of Liberalism,have an obligation to vote for Trump? ETA: even if you knew advocating your principle would cost you the election?

Because it is real easy to quote people that agree your candidate is the lesser of two evils.
 
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acbytesla said:
I don't buy for second that Bolton actually sees Biden as unacceptable. Bolton is playing a game for other Republicans. He wants his cake and eat it too,
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I'm asking you when have YOU voted for a true lesser of two evils? Someone that you would actually label as evil.
 
acbytesla said:
I don't buy for second that Bolton actually sees Biden as unacceptable. Bolton is playing a game for other Republicans. He wants his cake and eat it too,
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Enh. He probably is lying. He is a known blowhard. But there isn't really much of an interesting discussion around principles when there concerned party doesn't have any. So I don't worry too much about it.
 
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