Cont: The Trump Presidency: Part 19

[Ladewig]

I seem to recall seeing quotes from people who think that the US should just crush some weak country every decade or so just to remind the world how dominant we are.

But is Afghanistan really the best place to demonstrate one’s dominance? It is not a place for an advanced mechanized military to show its superiority.

 

[Minoosh]

But is Afghanistan really the best place to demonstrate one’s dominance? It is not a place for an advanced mechanized military to show its superiority.

In the abstract, no, but after 9/11 the situation wasn't abstract. In that one instance I was fine with regime change, even knowing innocent people would die. But to half-ass it by starting a whole 'nother war? Unforgivable.

Shortly after 9/11 an Afghan writer gained fame by pointing out that bombing Afghanistan into the Stone Age would be redundant.

On the other hand, the country has proven to be very resistant to conquest.

 

[Ladewig]

As the saying goes, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The more power someone has, the more ruthless they will become in order to keep that power.

There is no doubt in my mind that Trump would make himself dictator if he could. But I question whether there would be enough people to support him doing so even among Trump supporters. They may like his authoritarian style but to actually give up democracy for him? To take away their power to choose? I don't think so. But, I was proved wrong in 2016...

I think what Trump wants is to not have to sit through policy meeting and not have to read security briefings while still being the center of attention.
Wait, now that I think about it, being dictiator satisfies his goals. He holds rallies. He insults world leaders to their faces. He is surrounded by fawning sycophants. He censors news outlets. He locks up his enemies. He enriches himself at the country’s expense. He can always blame someone else for his f-ups. He can prevent reporters from asking hard questions.
Being a dictator checks all the boxes on his wish list.

 

[Stacyhs]

In the abstract, no, but after 9/11 the situation wasn't abstract. In that one instance I was fine with regime change, even knowing innocent people would die. But to half-ass it by starting a whole 'nother war? Unforgivable.

Shortly after 9/11 an Afghan writer gained fame by pointing out that bombing Afghanistan into the Stone Age would be redundant.

On the other hand, the country has proven to be very resistant to conquest.

The Bush admin learned nothing from the Russians in Afghanistan.

 

[Stacyhs]

I think what Trump wants is to not have to sit through policy meeting and not have to read security briefings while still being the center of attention.
Wait, now that I think about it, being dictiator satisfies his goals. He holds rallies. He insults world leaders to their faces. He is surrounded by fawning sycophants. He censors news outlets. He locks up his enemies. He enriches himself at the country’s expense. He can always blame someone else for his f-ups. He can prevent reporters from asking hard questions.
Being a dictator checks all the boxes on his wish list.

Absolutely. Trump didn't want to be president. He didn't want to govern; he wanted all the attention that running would bring. But once elected, his narcissism had never been fed so well. The rallies, the adoring crowds, the power, the sycophants are like opium to him.

 

[Minoosh]

The Bush admin learned nothing from the Russians in Afghanistan.

For me it's not even that. IMO attacking Afghanistan was justified as they had by proxy attacked us. Iraq on the other hand was contained. Not pretty, but a functioning state whose war-making capabilities were much diminished.

Afghanistan IMO might have worked out, or at least might have had a chance to, if the U.S. had stayed focused.

To bring it back to Trump, he at least hadn't started any wars. There's very little I'll defend him for, but he's avoided that. So far.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Trump Tweets

“Who better than @RepRatcliffe, who got to the bottom of the FISAGATE & RUSSIAGATE HOAX. It makes a lot of sense to put John Ratcliffe in there (DNI).The Senate should quickly approve him. @DevinNunes @MariaBartiromo John will do a great job for the American people!

People are disgusted and embarrassed by the Fake News Media, as headed by the @nytimes, @washingtonpost, @comcast & MSDNC, @ABC, @CBSNews and more. They no longer believe what they see and read, and for good reason. Fake News is, indeed, THE ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE!

 

[Minoosh]

Trump Tweets

People are disgusted and embarrassed by the Fake News Media, as headed by the @nytimes, @washingtonpost, @comcast & MSDNC, @ABC, @CBSNews and more. They no longer believe what they see and read, and for good reason. Fake News is, indeed, THE ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE!

As his list gets longer I hope a few supporters are realizing there's a simpler explanation for why Trump's take on reality is so different from that of most major media outlets.

 

[Shalamar]

As his list gets longer I hope a few supporters are realizing there's a simpler explanation for why Trump's take on reality is so different from that of most major media outlets.

They don't. They view those outlets as evil, because they don't fit their world view. Trump is trying to turn the populous against the media, and to have them trust only the state media.

 

[Ziggurat]

Trump is trying to turn the populous against the media, and to have them trust only the state media.

What, PBS?

 

[KDLarsen]

For me it's not even that. IMO attacking Afghanistan was justified as they had by proxy attacked us. Iraq on the other hand was contained. Not pretty, but a functioning state whose war-making capabilities were much diminished.

Afghanistan IMO might have worked out, or at least might have had a chance to, if the U.S. had stayed focused.

Given how botched the operations on the ground were, with regards to the civilian population, I'm honestly not too sure about that.

I remember reading an account from an officer, who went into several small villages, months after the invasion, and found a populace that was still largely bewildered as to why the US and their allies had invaded their country. In most of those places, he was the first person to tell them about 9/11.

And that's before you get to the really dark side of the occupation, ie. the black sites and what went on there.

 

[Cabbage]

What, PBS?

For some reason, you are very good at playing ignorant.

No, not PBS. Fox News.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Sammy's is in Tucson. They are getting backlash from supporting Trump. And Trump saying they are in Phoenix won't help their business.

Maybe that's a saving grace, they can claim Trump was talking about a different Sammy's.

 

[Trebuchet]

Things I don't understand: Why does he think it's a good idea to do this to himself? And why doesn't someone tell him?

 

[Planigale]

For me it's not even that. IMO attacking Afghanistan was justified as they had by proxy attacked us. Iraq on the other hand was contained. Not pretty, but a functioning state whose war-making capabilities were much diminished.

Afghanistan IMO might have worked out, or at least might have had a chance to, if the U.S. had stayed focused.

To bring it back to Trump, he at least hadn't started any wars. There's very little I'll defend him for, but he's avoided that. So far.

Actually the US by proxy attacked the US. The attack was by US residents, it was mostly planned in the US and launched from the US. There is no evidence that the Taliban or other Afghan government was aware of the planned attack before hand. None of the attackers were Afghanis nor was any funding from Afghanistan. None of those who were participants in planning but did not participate in the attack were Afghanis.

At best you can argue that when the US claimed OBL was responsible (something that some still dispute even on this forum), the Taliban did not immediately move to arrest him and hand him to US authorities. (It is arguable whether he Taliban had the systems in place to do so, and whether the US had provided evidence supporting a prime facie case for extradition.)

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It's going to be interesting when the epidemic Trump only poorly responded to breaks out in DC.

No doubt they all think there will be a vaccine before it gets to them. Maybe, maybe not.

 

[Minoosh]

Given how botched the operations on the ground were, with regards to the civilian population, I'm honestly not too sure about that.

I remember reading an account from an officer, who went into several small villages, months after the invasion, and found a populace that was still largely bewildered as to why the US and their allies had invaded their country. In most of those places, he was the first person to tell them about 9/11.

And that's before you get to the really dark side of the occupation, ie. the black sites and what went on there.

"Nation building" has a bad reputation and I don't know if it would have worked but any chance of that was wiped out when Bush decided to invade Iraq.

WTF was he thinking? Rhetorical.

 

[Stacyhs]

Trump Tweets

“Who better than @RepRatcliffe, who got to the bottom of the FISAGATE & RUSSIAGATE HOAX. It makes a lot of sense to put John Ratcliffe in there (DNI).The Senate should quickly approve him. @DevinNunes @MariaBartiromo John will do a great job for the American people!

People are disgusted and embarrassed by the Fake News Media, as headed by the @nytimes, @washingtonpost, @comcast & MSDNC, @ABC, @CBSNews and more. They no longer believe what they see and read, and for good reason. Fake News is, indeed, THE ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE!

Trump is keeping some mighty interesting company:

When Amnesty International released a report about prison deaths in Syria, the Syrian president, Bashar al-Assad, retorted that “we are living in a fake-news era.” President Nicolás Maduro of Venezuela, who is steadily rolling back democracy in his country, blamed the global media for “lots of false versions, lots of lies,” saying “this is what we call ‘fake news’ today.”
In Myanmar, where international observers accuse the military of conducting a genocidal campaign against the Rohingya Muslims, a security official told The New York Times that “there is no such thing as Rohingya,” adding: “It is fake news.” In Russia, a Foreign Ministry spokeswoman, Maria Zakharova, told a CNN reporter to “stop spreading lies and fake news.” Her ministry now uses a big red stamp, “FAKE,” on its website to label news stories it dislikes.

In countries where press freedom is restricted or under considerable threat — including Russia, China, Turkey, Libya, Poland, Hungary, Thailand, Somalia and others — political leaders have invoked “fake news” as justification for beating back media scrutiny.

Like Erdoğan, Trump casts himself as a man of the people, a populist nationalist who has repeatedly attacked the "elite media." Like Erdoğan, Trump has tried to discredit specific news outlets and attacked what he has said is biased or unfavorable journalism.

 

[Minoosh]

Actually the US by proxy attacked the US. The attack was by US residents, it was mostly planned in the US and launched from the US. There is no evidence that the Taliban or other Afghan government was aware of the planned attack before hand. None of the attackers were Afghanis nor was any funding from Afghanistan. None of those who were participants in planning but did not participate in the attack were Afghanis.

At best you can argue that when the US claimed OBL was responsible (something that some still dispute even on this forum), the Taliban did not immediately move to arrest him and hand him to US authorities. (It is arguable whether he Taliban had the systems in place to do so, and whether the US had provided evidence supporting a prime facie case for extradition.)

The Taliban knew who bin Laden was and what he was about. They used each other. I don't fault the U.S. for its initial response, but things got out of control pretty quickly.

 

[Shalamar]

For some reason, you are very good at playing ignorant.

No, not PBS. Fox News.

Not Fox news. I'm reminded that Trump was looking to st art his own News Service before the election cycle. I suspect he wants to be the only true news source.