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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 29

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OK, I meant XX and XY.

Doh!

No. You wrote what you meant and meant what you wrote. You were wrong. When it was pointed out to you how wrong you were, you remained oblivious to it. Yet you persist in lecturing us on DNA and forensics. You must have very thick skin, as you have suffered vastly more humiliation here - all self-imposed of course - than the average person would ever tolerate.
 
The father contributes both the Y and the X chromosome in conception.

IOW it is the male who determines the sex of the child so King Henry VIII executing his wives for not having a son was jolly unfair.

Thank you, Capt. Obvious.


PS Sollecito's DNA was NOT LCN. Lied again!

Now, according to the Expert Panel, the most likely outcome if the sample which was amplified had been correctly quantified using the Real Time PCR method, is that it would have been classified LCN/Low Copy Number (due to the fact that the electrophoresis graph shows peaks below the 50 RFU threshold and allele imbalance (Hb=φa/φb >0.60)indicative of a Low Copy Number sample). That is to say: an amount not able to give reliable results if treated in the same way as an extract of greater quantity, and, therefore, only able to be processed further if particular measures [accorgimenti] are taken, as advised by the authors who have dealt with the problems associated with LCN samples. However, these measures do not appear to have been employed, or correctly employed, by the Scientific Police.
(Hellmann MR)

Before you resort to your 'but the merits court' and 'Hellmann was overturned' bit, C & V's findings were NOT thrown out and were accepted by the M-B SC.

Hm. I would have sworn your post also included a claim that mtDNA testing is not available to men from DNA testing companies. It directly followed your statement about Henry VIII. Well, if you had, it would have been wrong as:

Since everyone has mitochondria, both males and females can take mtDNA tests.
https://support.ancestry.com/s/article/Y-DNA-mtDNA-and-Autosomal-DNA-Tests#mtdna

ETA: "The father contributes both the Y and the X chromosome in conception."

Oh, good lord. I'm sure you meant to write "The father contributes both the Y and the Y chromosomes at conception."
 
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Haha. There is zero evidence Stefanoni did anything wrong.

Except for everything pointed out by C & V! Oh...and 'forgetting' about several TMB negative for blood test results on crucial samples but remembering to always refer to them as "luminol revealed". Not that that would be misleading to the average person who thinks luminol means there is blood present.


She identified the DNA of Knox, Guede and Sollecito at the murder scene. Deal with it.

Yes, she did....now do we really need to go over exactly why that did not inculpate Knox or Sollecito?

They were definitively acquitted for "not having committed the crime (fact)". Deal with it.
 
No. You wrote what you meant and meant what you wrote. You were wrong. When it was pointed out to you how wrong you were, you remained oblivious to it. Yet you persist in lecturing us on DNA and forensics. You must have very thick skin, as you have suffered vastly more humiliation here - all self-imposed of course - than the average person would ever tolerate.

Claim you.
 
Haha. There is zero evidence Stefanoni did anything wrong. She identified the DNA of Knox, Guede and Sollecito at the murder scene. Deal with it.

There is also zero evidence that Stefanoni did anything right. Compare this with the RIS Carabinieri who at the Nencini trial brought ALL their work to the court, so that both sides could evaluate their analysis of Sample 36C. It was then possible for independent forensic-DNA experts not assiciated with that trial to tell whether or not they'd proved anything - unlike with Stefanoni in 2009.

And.... the RIS Carabinieri proved that Sample 36C belonged to Knox, therefore adding nothing to the significance of the knife.
 
Look, I am sorry you see this as brinkmanship but if you are male and you want to know the haplotype of your maternal line, unfortunately, you will have to get your mother, grandmother or natural sister to do the DNA test to find out. Likewise, a female will need to get her dad, or brother to do his if she wants to know what her male line haplotype is.

You are most welcome to mislead Numbers into thinking he (if Numbers is male but could well be a she) can discover his mtDNA haplotype via a DNA test.
But never in a million years can you bring yourself to admit this is correct.

Really? Are you trying to imply males can be tested for mtDNA?

Shocking the level of subterfuge you will adopt.

Humans have two pairs of chomosomes either XY or YY. The former is female and you can extract mtDNA for the haplotype, the latter are male and you can perform Y-haplotype profiling on a male but not on a female.

Of course everybody has mitchondrial material in their biological cells but we are discussing here DNA profiling.

Wrong a male wanting to discover his paternal line can simply present his own DNA. To discover his maternal one, he'd need to get his mother, grandmother or sister, etc to find out theirs.

As I said, bodily cells contain mitochondrial matter. However, in DNA profiling an MtDNA sequencing can only be done through the female line. Y-haplotypes, male line.

OK, I meant XX and XY.

Doh!

I'll let the evidence speak for itself.
 
Haha. So Party Rock's grandfather started up the West Seattle Herald and lo and behold Party Rock has fixed it for his weird wife to write an agony aunt column.

What next, Rosemary West's advice for teenage girls or Joanna Denahey's Knitting with Knives patterns?

Graham Young's tasty recipes (101 ways with arsenic).

Myra Hindley's Bible study group.

Ian Huntleys Young Man U supporters club.

This post is in a long line of guilter-nutter posts, spewing venom at everyone associated with the "innocence" side of the conversation.... and not even so much that.... anyone who so much as gives Amanda Knox the time of day is excoriated, shamed, lampooned, vilified.... you fill in the rest. A law school asks AK to come to speak about wrongful convictions, and all of a sudden that law school, its staff and students are dragged through the mud in the guilter-nutter, propaganda machine. One clerk at a law school who had a piece of setting up the event's venue received anonymous hate-e-mail, accusing the poor person of supporting killers.

It is a mystery why they think that that level of undue rhetoric contributes anything to an understanding of the horrible events of Nov 1, 2019. It's a mystery why these people believe that this is an honourable remembrance of the original victim to all this.
 
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This post is in a long line of guilter-nutter posts, spewing venom at everyone associated with the "innocence" side of the conversation.... and not even so much that.... anyone who so much as gives Amanda Knox the time of day is excoriated, shamed, lampooned, vilified.... you fill in the rest. A law school asks AK to come to speak about wrongful convictions, and all of a sudden that law school, its staff and students are dragged through the mud in the guilter-nutter, propaganda machine. One clerk at a law school who had a piece of setting up the event's venue received anonymous hate-e-mail, accusing the poor person of supporting killers.

It is a mystery why they think that that level of undue rhetoric contributes anything to an understanding of the horrible events of Nov 1, 2019. It's a mystery why these people believe that this is an honourable remembrance of the original victim to all this.

Well said. Hate is an ugly thing and it often says more about the hater than the target of that hate.
 
There is also zero evidence that Stefanoni did anything right. Compare this with the RIS Carabinieri who at the Nencini trial brought ALL their work to the court, so that both sides could evaluate their analysis of Sample 36C. It was then possible for independent forensic-DNA experts not assiciated with that trial to tell whether or not they'd proved anything - unlike with Stefanoni in 2009.

And.... the RIS Carabinieri proved that Sample 36C belonged to Knox, therefore adding nothing to the significance of the knife.

I believe you meant 36I, but the point is well made.
 
This post is in a long line of guilter-nutter posts, spewing venom at everyone associated with the "innocence" side of the conversation.... and not even so much that.... anyone who so much as gives Amanda Knox the time of day is excoriated, shamed, lampooned, vilified.... you fill in the rest. A law school asks AK to come to speak about wrongful convictions, and all of a sudden that law school, its staff and students are dragged through the mud in the guilter-nutter, propaganda machine. One clerk at a law school who had a piece of setting up the event's venue received anonymous hate-e-mail, accusing the poor person of supporting killers.

It is a mystery why they think that that level of undue rhetoric contributes anything to an understanding of the horrible events of Nov 1, 2019. It's a mystery why these people believe that this is an honourable remembrance of the original victim to all this.

I believe you meant 2007, but the point is well made.

Sorry, but someone's gotta keep you on the path... :D
 
I believe you meant 36I, but the point is well made.

Ooooops. Yikes, this site IS working as a skeptical inquiry site after all. I make a mistake, someone corrects me, and the truth is more closely exposed.

The way it has been working is that I would dispute you, and then when you asked me to provide a cite "proving" that the Sample had been 36C, and not 36I, I would tell you to do your own searching.

But it is better to simply admit a mistake and move on. Maybe there IS something to this skeptical inquiry after all.
 
Ooooops. Yikes, this site IS working as a skeptical inquiry site after all. I make a mistake, someone corrects me, and the truth is more closely exposed.

The way it has been working is that I would dispute you, and then when you asked me to provide a cite "proving" that the Sample had been 36C, and not 36I, I would tell you to do your own searching.
But it is better to simply admit a mistake and move on. Maybe there IS something to this skeptical inquiry after all.

Or....you could just disappear for several days or a couple of weeks and then come back hoping it's all been forgotten.
 
Is that another typo? Do tell.

I couldn't tell. If you wanted to be generous you could think that she was trying to say that a male sperm contains either an X or Y chromosome and thus it is the random selection of sperm that determines the baby's gender. What she did say is something different.
 
I couldn't tell. If you wanted to be generous you could think that she was trying to say that a male sperm contains either an X or Y chromosome and thus it is the random selection of sperm that determines the baby's gender sex. What she did say is something different.


I don't think that was what she was trying to say at all.

Yes, the male may contribute either a Y chromosome (to a male embryo) or an X chromosome (to a female embryo). But as you say, that isn't what she said at all. And I have no idea what point she was trying to make either.
 
There is also zero evidence that Stefanoni did anything right. Compare this with the RIS Carabinieri who at the Nencini trial brought ALL their work to the court, so that both sides could evaluate their analysis of Sample 36C. It was then possible for independent forensic-DNA experts not assiciated with that trial to tell whether or not they'd proved anything - unlike with Stefanoni in 2009.

And.... the RIS Carabinieri proved that Sample 36C belonged to Knox, therefore adding nothing to the significance of the knife.

You do know that even a defence expert geneticist Vinci, found Knox' DNA, together with Guede's on Mez' bra fabric re sample 165B?

Objective neutral scientific results puts Knox at the crime scene with Guede.
 
There is also zero evidence that Stefanoni did anything right. Compare this with the RIS Carabinieri who at the Nencini trial brought ALL their work to the court, so that both sides could evaluate their analysis of Sample 36C. It was then possible for independent forensic-DNA experts not assiciated with that trial to tell whether or not they'd proved anything - unlike with Stefanoni in 2009.

And.... the RIS Carabinieri proved that Sample 36C belonged to Knox, therefore adding nothing to the significance of the knife.

Better stated: The evidence that Stefanoni did any forensic DNA testing correctly is missing, because she herself suppressed it. On the other hand, there is a definitive evidence of Stefanoni's forensic misconduct in the Knox - Sollecito case. Concrete evidence exists of this misconduct; for example, some of the negative control as well as positive control data from the real-time quantitative PCR that she did conduct objectively show DNA contamination.

Here's a summary of Stefanoni's forensic misconduct, revised from the previous version by a clarification of the ECHR significance.

The Seventeen-Plus Forensic Science Sins of Patrizia Stefanoni

There was a pattern of misconduct and malpractice by Patrizia Stefanoni and the Italian Scientific Police in their forensic investigation of the murder and rape of Meredith Kercher, and the trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, who were charged with those crimes.

The pattern of misconduct and malpractice included investigations in Patrizia Stefanoni's laboratory, the treatment of evidence, and her court testimony. She ignored and violated numerous essential technical standards for forensic science investigation, violated fundamental standards of ethical behavior, and produced invalid conclusions that contradicted logic and well-known scientific principles.

Stefanoni's misconduct and malpractice resulted in actions that would be considered violations of the European Convention of Human Rights, Article 6, right to a fair trial, by Italy, including but not necessarily limited to, the failure to provide adequate time and facilities for the preparation of the defense (Art. 6.3b) and the failure to provide equality of arms to the defense (Art. 6.1), had Knox or Sollecito been convicted of the murder/rape of Kecher based on Stefanoni's alleged forensic evidence.

Here is a summary.

1. Stefanoni failed - indeed, refused repeated requests - to turn over a copy of the best evidence of the DNA profiling investigation, the raw data, called electronic data files (EDFs), to the defense;

2. She suppressed numerous results, including potential exculpatory findings; these include blood stains from the downstairs flat, the full results of the rape kit, and results of tests on the putative semen stain on the pillow;

3. She destroyed evidence, in particular the bra clasp, preventing any DNA profile retest;

4. She entered false reports of data into her reports (RTIGF #1 & #2);

5. She committed perjury, for example, regarding the amount of DNA in the knife blade sample and that RT-PCR was used to quantify that DNA;

6. She delayed providing the minimal DNA data that was given to the defense until late in the trial;

7. She did not reveal in a timely manner to the defense and the court that TMB tests were done and precluded the presence of blood in the luminol foot print hits attributed to Amanda Knox;

8. She and her forensic police team mishandled specimen collection, in particular by swabbing large areas, failing to change gloves, failing to used DNA-free forceps for holding specimens, and by handling DNA specimens with dirty gloves;

9. She and her forensic police team mishandled chain-of-custody, specifically by repackaging the knife from Sollecito's kitchen in a police station without proper control against contamination;

10. She repeated tests that were conducted in secret (as deduced from irregularities in test sample numbering), to obtain false inculpatory results, for the kitchen knife and bra clasp;

11. She apparently manipulated positive control samples in the RT-PCR quantification to obtain high intercept levels probably in order to make unknown DNA samples appear more highly concentrated than they truly were;

12. She used the Qubit fluorometer to quantify DNA concentration in samples without having validated the equipment and procedure;

13. She arbitrarily used certain specimens registering "too low" for DNA concentration on the Qubit fluorometer for DNA profiling, and apparently not others, in a suspect-centered manner, violating good forensic practice. A reading of "too low" with the Qubit may mean there is actually no DNA present;

14. She attempted to conduct LCN DNA profiling in a method she had "invented" without validating the method;

15. She attempted to conduct LCN DNA profiling in a lab not adequately set up to prevent contamination, and thus inherently unsuited for LCN DNA profiling, which is highly sensitive to low concentrations of DNA;

16. She stated in court testimony that she had never been told of a contamination incident in her lab, however, the data she gave to the defense shows several incidents of contamination;

17. She did not supply records of methodology and quality control (such as rate of contamination and corrective measures) nor provide profiles of blank and positive control specimens to the defense, such records and control profiles are ordinarily and necessarily part of a report from a forensic DNA profiling lab;

18. She did not call out all the DNA alleles and profiles detectable on the bra clasp, instead only identifying the victim and one of the suspects (Sollecito), while DNA from several other males was detectable (indicating that the bra clasp had been contaminated).

19. Presented conclusions from the DNA data contrary to reasonable forensic science practice because of the absence of replication and the presence of contamination.
 
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