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Trans Women are not Women

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The Atheist

The Grammar Tyrant
The Atheist
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This subject has been brought to a head in NZ by the inclusion of a trans woman in our weightlifting teams for the Commonwealth Games. Link: https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opini...urel-hubbard-carrying-the-weight-of-the-world

She competed as a bloke until a few years ago when it occurred to him that under new rules he could compete as a shiela and actually win something he was actually a woman trapped in a man's body, despite having male DNA.

In these inclusionary times I find it interesting that the main group of people who openly agree with the thread title are Germaine Greer and other TERFs. (Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists) How appropriate that the very women who empowered women in the '60s are now, in their 60s, disempowering women.

I have no problem with trans women and even worked on a trans-positive hiring strategy with a couple of large companies, but I cannot and will not accept that they are the same as women. They are most welcome to use women's bathrooms, go to women's jails and changing rooms, but they're not actually women, and can see why Greer and others feel the same.

They have a choice.

No, I'm not saying gender/sexuality is a choice, but it certainly can be, as the significant - but small - sample of trans reversals displays.
 
I find situations like this interesting.

It shows that we are at a strange interval in equality, we are not quite at the point where we can have real frank useful discussions,we are all about being nice, but we are afraid to be reasonable for fear of being mean.

That is not showing trans people respect, that is treating them like disabled children, unable to understand to be reasonable, through no fault of their own.
 
In sports, the main reason why men and women compete separately is that men, due to differences in hormonal mix and development, quite simply grow stronger muscles, and on average also grow taller, than women. It's a matter of biological, physiological sporting fairness.

So I can see, and actually support, that transgender folks who are treated as women socially are still treated as men athletically, if they (still) have the male mix of testosterone, size, muscles etc.

Or else, next thing we have a boxer claiming to be a feather weight trapped in a heavy weight body!
 
If transwomen are allowed to compete athletically as women, it will effectively exclude ciswomen from athletic competition. Sure, there will probably always be some ciswomen on the team, as long as women's sport continues to exist, anyway. But they will be there as handmaidens to the transwomen who actually matter competitively.
 
I imagine that sport sanctioning bodies may have to address the issue, but it isn't a question that will determine the fate of civilization.

It wasn't so long ago that the NASCAR driver Robby Gordon complained about the advantage that female drivers generally have over male drivers - less weight:

http://distributedrepublic.net/archives/2005/06/03/women-drivers/

Gordon, a former open-wheel driver now in NASCAR, contends that Patrick is at an advantage over the rest of the competitors because she only weighs 100 pounds. Because all the cars weigh the same, Patrick's is lighter on the race track.

"The lighter the car, the faster it goes," Gordon said. "Do the math. Put her in the car at her weight, then put me or Tony Stewart in the car at 200 pounds and our car is at least 100 pounds heavier.

"I won't race against her until the IRL does something to take that advantage away."

And NASCAR eventually addressed it:

http://www.espn.com/racing/nascar/c...nica-patrick-body-weight-not-plus-driver-seat

According to the NASCAR rulebook, drivers who weigh less than 180 pounds have to add 10 pounds to their car for every 10 pounds down to 140. Therefore, the maximum penalty would be 40 pounds.

Patrick arrived at Daytona International Speedway weighing 110 pounds, according to her representatives. So theoretically, her car could have been 30 pounds lighter than the car driven by 150-pound Jeff Gordon, who qualified second.
 
theprestige said:
If transwomen are allowed to compete athletically as women, it will effectively exclude ciswomen from athletic competition. Sure, there will probably always be some ciswomen on the team, as long as women's sport continues to exist, anyway. But they will be there as handmaidens to the transwomen who actually matter competitively.
Click to expand...

I don't know if the 0.3% of trans people will really tip the balance that much, but it sure isn't fair _IF_ the trans woman has the build and hormones of a man.
 
BStrong said:
I imagine that sport sanctioning bodies may have to address the issue, but it isn't a question that will determine the fate of civilization.

It wasn't so long ago that the NASCAR driver Robby Gordon complained about the advantage that female drivers generally have over male drivers - less weight:

http://distributedrepublic.net/archives/2005/06/03/women-drivers/

Gordon, a former open-wheel driver now in NASCAR, contends that Patrick is at an advantage over the rest of the competitors because she only weighs 100 pounds. Because all the cars weigh the same, Patrick's is lighter on the race track.

"The lighter the car, the faster it goes," Gordon said. "Do the math. Put her in the car at her weight, then put me or Tony Stewart in the car at 200 pounds and our car is at least 100 pounds heavier.

"I won't race against her until the IRL does something to take that advantage away."

And NASCAR eventually addressed it:

http://www.espn.com/racing/nascar/c...nica-patrick-body-weight-not-plus-driver-seat

According to the NASCAR rulebook, drivers who weigh less than 180 pounds have to add 10 pounds to their car for every 10 pounds down to 140. Therefore, the maximum penalty would be 40 pounds.

Patrick arrived at Daytona International Speedway weighing 110 pounds, according to her representatives. So theoretically, her car could have been 30 pounds lighter than the car driven by 150-pound Jeff Gordon, who qualified second.
Click to expand...

If driver weight really mattered that much, car racing would have adopted the same strategy as horse racing.
 
It is similar to the issues surrounding Intersex people in top-level athletics.

The Caster Semenya debate

It is complicated but setting upper limits for testosterone levels in transgender female athletes is one possible solution.

I really doubt that anyone becomes transgender just to have an athletic advantage. There have been cases of men trying to present themselves as women to gain athletic advantage, but that is not at all the same thing as being transgender, just as wearing drag to a costume party does not make a man into a transgender woman.


ETA: Slate has the clearest writeup of the intersex athletics issue that I've seen:

Should Caster Semenya Be Allowed to Compete Against Women?

At the center of this potential mess is South African track star Caster Semenya, a woman whom the New Yorker’s Ariel Levy described in a 2009 profile as “breathtakingly butch” with a torso “like the chest plate on a suit of armor.” Among athletes with intersex conditions, none is as prominent nor as magnificently gifted as Semenya. Seven years ago, while still a teenager, she destroyed her rivals in the 800 meters at the track and field world championships. Shortly thereafter, a clumsy, ad hoc, and supposedly secret assessment of Semenya’s true biological sex made its way into the press: She’d been found to have internal testes in place of a uterus and ovaries, as well as high levels of testosterone. Semenya addressed the controversy in early 2010: “I have been subjected to unwarranted and invasive scrutiny of the most intimate and private details of my being,” she said.
Click to expand...

Biologically, a Transgender woman (with testes) on hormone therapy is probably very similar to an intersex person who may identify as either gender or no gender or whatever the person wants to identify as. A transgender woman who didn't begin hormone treatments until adulthood may still benefit from increased bone density, but the hormone treatments will prevent excessive muscle buildup. Testosterone is the key. I don't know what limits can or should be placed on testosterone levels for female athletes, but the simple fact that it can be measured suggests that there may be scientific answers to the dilemma of transgender or intersex women out-competing cis-gender non-intersex women in athletics.
 
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crescent said:
It is similar to the issues surrounding Intersex people in top-level athletics.

The Caster Semenya debate

It is complicated but setting upper limits for testosterone levels in transgender female athletes is one possible solution.

I really doubt that anyone becomes transgender just to have an athletic advantage. There have been cases of men trying to present themselves as women to gain athletic advantage, but that is not at all the same thing as being transgender, just as wearing drag to a costume party does not make a man into a transgender woman.
Click to expand...

QFT
 
BStrong said:
I imagine that sport sanctioning bodies may have to address the issue, but it isn't a question that will determine the fate of civilization.

It wasn't so long ago that the NASCAR driver Robby Gordon complained about the advantage that female drivers generally have over male drivers - less weight:

I still cant post URL's

Gordon, a former open-wheel driver now in NASCAR, contends that Patrick is at an advantage over the rest of the competitors because she only weighs 100 pounds. Because all the cars weigh the same, Patrick's is lighter on the race track.

"The lighter the car, the faster it goes," Gordon said. "Do the math. Put her in the car at her weight, then put me or Tony Stewart in the car at 200 pounds and our car is at least 100 pounds heavier.

"I won't race against her until the IRL does something to take that advantage away."

And NASCAR eventually addressed it:

Blah blah URL

According to the NASCAR rulebook, drivers who weigh less than 180 pounds have to add 10 pounds to their car for every 10 pounds down to 140. Therefore, the maximum penalty would be 40 pounds.

Patrick arrived at Daytona International Speedway weighing 110 pounds, according to her representatives. So theoretically, her car could have been 30 pounds lighter than the car driven by 150-pound Jeff Gordon, who qualified second.
Click to expand...

Wow... OK. First off lots of motorsports make a lighter driver carry ballast to even the playing field. However, by and large, it always has been, and always will, be an advantage in open wheel racing to be lighter and shorter. Secondly, if there is a very small man competing in IndyCar Gordon would refuse to compete?? And lastly, there is a long history of women competing in the Indy 500 even with Patrick excluded, including last year.

See List_of_female_Indianapolis_500_drivers on wikipedia
 
Argumemnon said:
Aren't men stronger in order to steer the car? And what about lighter men?
Click to expand...

Purpose built racecars, whether open wheel or otherwise turn much easier than one would imagine. Rallying or off road racing is a entirely different proposition, as the drivers take about as much physical punishment during the course of a race as a professional boxer takes in 15 rounds.
 
BStrong said:
Purpose built racecars, whether open wheel or otherwise turn much easier than one would imagine. Rallying or off road racing is a entirely different proposition, as the drivers take about as much physical punishment during the course of a race as a professional boxer takes in 15 rounds.
Click to expand...

F1 has power steering, Indy Car doesn't. It probably doesn't matter too much on ovals but a long race on a road course, and you bet arm strength will matter a huge amount. I've had sore arms just from karting!
 
lobosrul5 said:
F1 has power steering, Indy Car doesn't. It probably doesn't matter too much on ovals but a long race on a road course, and you bet arm strength will matter a huge amount. I've had sore arms just from karting!
Click to expand...

On track days on the bike (riding the usual three-four 20 minute sessions) I'd lose 10 Lbs over the course of the day and be glad to see my bed once I got home.
 
Argumemnon said:
I don't know if the 0.3% of trans people will really tip the balance that much, but it sure isn't fair _IF_ the trans woman has the build and hormones of a man.
Click to expand...

Doesn't take a lot. One transwoman weightlifter levels the playing field for all the ciswomen weightlifters. All the records become her records. Any woman who competes in the same tournaments or championships must accept second place as her highest aspiration. Any woman who competes in events without the transwoman must accept that their first place exists in her shadow.

Would it destroy women's sport if we let 0.3% of male athletes compete against them? I think probably, yeah it would.
 
As this becomes the norm due to precedent setting decisions and more transgender women there is basically a few of obvious outcomes that are going to happen IMO

A few trans-women may feel empowered an gain confidence in their own situation

A lot of people of all types including trans-women will think it is stupid due to the obvious unfair advantages transwomen have in these type of sports

It will discourage a lot of women from bothering to either chose these sports as a viable career option or even to enter the higher level competitions
 
theprestige said:
Doesn't take a lot. One transwoman weightlifter levels the playing field for all the ciswomen weightlifters. All the records become her records. Any woman who competes in the same tournaments or championships must accept second place as her highest aspiration. Any woman who competes in events without the transwoman must accept that their first place exists in her shadow.

Would it destroy women's sport if we let 0.3% of male athletes compete against them? I think probably, yeah it would.
Click to expand...

Assuming you're right, they should just eliminate the segregation of men and women in sports and let the best person man win.
 
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