What It's Like To Own Guns...

arthwollipot said:
Anything. Just damn well do something and stop blocking those who are trying.
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I'm sorry, I'm having trouble following.

Suppose that George said, oh, let's say that all Americans eat too much fried food. Harry replies that he is tired of such ignorance, that only Southern people eat too much fried food, not all Americans. (Harry's claim isn't too believable, but take it as true, since my imagination fails me tonight.)

Your response is, if I understand it, that Harry should stop those Southern people from eating so much fried food if he doesn't want others to think that this is an American problem.

Is this roughly right? You're explicitly saying that, if some part of the U.S. is prone to gun violence[1], and if WildCat doesn't like it when you claim it is the U.S. as a whole, then it's his responsibility to get that demographic to cut it the heck out. Maybe by dressing in tights and doing a superhero impression or something.

With due respect, this is not, I think, your best argument.

[1] I'm not claiming this is the case, merely repeating the context.
 
arthwollipot said:
You're the one who keeps bringing up demographics, not me. If you don't want to be tarred with the same brush, then maybe you should do something about it.
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You keep bringing up Australia and NZ rates of gun violence. It's not those demographics that are shooting up the USA.

It's a subculture of gangs and violence among blacks and to a lesser extent Hispanics that does the overwhelming majority of that here, 2 demographics that Oz and Kiwiland have almost none of. Those 2 countries are far more similar to Vermont and South Dakota and Utah than they are to Chicago or St. Louis or Louisiana or Mississippi. Those 3 states have extremely low rates of violence and extremely lax gun laws.
 
WildCat said:
You keep bringing up Australia and NZ rates of gun violence. It's not those demographics that are shooting up the USA.

It's a subculture of gangs and violence among blacks and to a lesser extent Hispanics that does the overwhelming majority of that here, 2 demographics that Oz and Kiwiland have almost none of. Those 2 countries are far more similar to Vermont and South Dakota and Utah than they are to Chicago or St. Louis or Louisiana or Mississippi. Those 3 states have extremely low rates of violence and extremely lax gun laws.
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Not for the first time, the data does not support your claims. Rather it shows that of known perpetrators, whites are responsible for 48% of homicides, and blacks 47%. Whites make up 53% of victims, and blacks 44%. Overwhelmingly whites kill other whites, while blacks kill other blacks. Even if one excluded all non-white categories, white America still seems pretty good at killing itself to a degree that easily outpaces other white populations elsewhere.
 
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Information Analyst said:
Not for the first time, the data does not support your claims. Rather it shows that of known perpetrators, whites are responsible for 48% of homicides, and blacks 47%. Whites make up 53% of victims, and blacks 44%. Overwhelmingly whites kill other whites, while blacks kill other blacks. Even if one excluded all non-white categories, white America still seems pretty good at killing itself to a degree that easily outpaces other white populations elsewhere.
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Using some quick and simply math to adjust the black murder rate down to the white murder rate leaves me with a US murder rate down to 2.23 from 3.8 (per 100,000). This is far below some white populations elsewhere, but also still about twice as much as Australia or the UK. It doesn't adjust the Hispanic rate down because that's included in the white rate, so the 2.23 is still a slight over-estimate.

My own view is that the gang problems that are exacerbated by the war on drugs are a very large part in what drives up the US murder rate above some other countries, and does influence many sub-cultures. It is also influenced by a much greater poverty issue coupled with weaker social safety nets. I remain unconvinced that it's racial as these sub-cultures have substantial cross-racial participation. I also remain unconvinced that the ready access to guns exacerbates the issue so heavily that our murder rate wouldn't still be roughly as high even with Australian level restrictions as the main drivers of this murder rate already break gun laws to do so and such laws would generally be far less complied with here.
 
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arthwollipot said:
That's ridiculous. Why do you need a gun for protection? What are you protecting yourself from? Other people with guns. Of which there aren't any because only those people who have a valid reason for owning one can get them.
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Really?

No criminals in Australia ever have access to firearms of any sort? Gangs never acquire or use firearms? Must be quite the utopia you have there, where only law-abiding citizens have access to firearms, and criminals just don't consider them worthwhile.
 
Giz said:
In what way does deliberately ingnoring both causes and possible solutions count as trying? You aren't trying arth, you're preaching. (And the, better informed, congregation isn't buying it.)
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Being a non-American, preaching is all I've got. Sorry if you don't like that.

I see children dying every day in America from gunshot wounds, and I see people like Wildcat deliberately not doing a damn thing to help prevent it. Every suggestion - regardless of its potential effectiveness, regardless of whether it is even possible or not - is absolutely gunned down (no pun intended). 2nd Amendment advocates must - are forced by their ideology - to engage in vicious attacks and untrue propaganda in order to make sure that absolutely nothing can ever be done to prevent thousands of children dying from easily preventable gunshot wounds in America.

I think that is tragic. I think that thousands of children every year is not a price worth paying for so-called "freedom". But 2nd Amendment advocates are absolutely and without compromise against anything that might help.

If I could come up with the perfect solution - backed by evidence, supported by the best impartial research and guaranteed to reduce gun deaths in America by 90% - if it means that WildCat has to give up even a single one of his guns, he will block it and speak out against it and do everything he can to stop it from happening. I think that's completely insane.

So yes, I preach. I preach with gusto and emotion, because I see tragedy played out every day on America's streets. I don't pretend to have a solution. It's not my job to come up with a solution. American voters must come up with a solution. The alternative is a gun death and injury rate that is out of all proportion to every other developed country. 2nd Amendment advocates seem to be okay with that. I'm not.

To counter an ideology, you have to get to peoples' hearts and minds. So yes, I preach and I make no apology for it.
 
The Atheist said:
No, but the in-depth checks made definitely prohibit extremist muslins from buying guns.
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So if a person is an extremist of any type, they can be blocked from purchasing a firearm? Or is it just the religious fanatics? How does a person get labeled as an extremist in NZ? Is it like being put on the no-fly list in the USA? Is there any due process involved?

Ranb
 
arthwollipot said:
. Every suggestion - regardless of its potential effectiveness, regardless of whether it is even possible or not.
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Here is where you fail. Try coming up with potentially effective solutions. possible solutions. Otherwise, it's just self-satisfying sermonizing. And however good that feels to you, that kind of online onanism isn't likely to win any new converts.
 
Giz said:
Here is where you fail. Try coming up with potentially effective solutions. possible solutions. Otherwise, it's just self-satisfying sermonizing. And however good that feels to you, that kind of online onanism isn't likely to win any new converts.
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I have done so many times in the past, with varying levels of realism. Some of them were clearly unrealistic, others based on good statistics and evidence. Every one of them was shot down.

And you think I do this because it makes me feel good? Jesus Christ.
 
arthwollipot said:
I see children dying every day in America from gunshot wounds,]
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No you don't. You hear or read about it in the media. I'm certain it doesn't affect you the way a child being murdered near your home would.

2nd Amendment advocates must - are forced by their ideology - to engage in vicious attacks and untrue propaganda in order to make sure that absolutely nothing can ever be done to prevent thousands of children dying from easily preventable gunshot wounds in America.
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Broad brush you got there. Thursday the 21st is gun bill day in the Judiciary Committee in Olympia WA. http://app.leg.wa.gov/mobile/Commit...&EndDate=01/21/2016 00:00:00&AgendaType=Daily

HB 1747 Gun storage. Penalties for allowing a child to get a hold of a gun and/or do damage with it. I don't oppose it, but there are already laws in place that punish adults who allow kids to get their hands on guns. There are better things they can do.

HB 2461 Extreme risk protection orders. A person can lose their guns if a family member complaints to the police that they're threat. Very little due process allowing the local authorities to curtail civil rights; I saw nothing in the bill that allows the victim of the order to contest it. If the victim refuses to surrender their guns to the police immediately, they have 48 hours to sell or transfer them. If this happened to me I'd be screwed, it costs $20-$100 to transfer a gun in WA now since bkgd checks came into force. I'd rather not sped a minimum of $1000 to have a friend hold on to my collection for me then spend the same amount to get them back. I guess I could find a place out of state to stash them. My NFA firearms are another problem. I'd have to tell the BATFE I'm taking them across state lines to put them in a safe I control. I can't get approval in 48 hours from the BATFE for anything.

HB 2372 Destruction of forfeited guns. The police have to destroy illegal guns they seize; except for the nice stuff they like.

HB 2460 Local government gun regulation. Just what the people in certain commie counties need, more power for the elitist commissioners.

HB 2481 Clarifies restrictions on short barreled rifles. I'm speaking in support of this one to the committee, duh. :)

If I could come up with the perfect solution - .... has to give up even a single one of his guns,....
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Then it wouldn't be perfect at all would it?

Ranb
 
quadraginta said:
Because only totalitarian governments ever favor the rights of society over that of the individual?

I'm not sure which countries that would leave out, since that tends to be a normal function of government.

.
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"Well, let me tell you something - this is exactly how Nazi Germany started" - Basil Fawlty
 
Ranb said:
So if a person is an extremist of any type, they can be blocked from purchasing a firearm? Or is it just the religious fanatics? How does a person get labeled as an extremist in NZ? Is it like being put on the no-fly list in the USA? Is there any due process involved?

Ranb
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I may be wrong but as far as I'm aware they can block people for a wide range of reasons.

In NZ owning a gun is a privilege
 
And of course there is due process. It is just down to the requester to prove they can be trusted
 
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