Is it Fair to trick an Orangutan?

[Denver]

What human traits? Sense for continuity? Maybe even dogs have that. Or is it learned? Kids acquire this ability from my observations (at certain age just like "understanding" colors), acquire understanding that stuff cannot just disappear and when it does its either "magic" or "trick" depending on understanding of reality.

This orangutan apparently has sense for continuity.

Again, orangutans aren't humans. I don't dispute they have a sense of continuity. But without more examples of them following the deception inherent in a magic trick and being delighted by it, I'm not going to be too quick to ascribe this one's behavior to behavior we'd expect from a human. I'm not saying it cannot be that: I'm just trying to point out some possible pareidolia* in the interpretations of this video. But at the end of the day it's still a fun video and I don't want to ruin it for you.


* a psychological phenomenon wherein the mind perceives a familiar pattern of something where none actually exists.

 

[tuco]

Oh I see. My question was rhetorical really, but it does make me wonder what other animals, just like other humans, "think" in certain situations. That is despite I tend to agree that asking: What does the orangutan think? and trying to answer it with human concepts is tricky.

Then again, our behaviour comes from "orangutans" not the other way around. So ascribing behavior we'd expect from human .. like what? Finding funny when stuff disappears and continuity is violated?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, I don't think we can assume an animal understood a magic trick and reacted to their being tricked by it, by their facial expression.

I'm sure a primatologist could give a better answer. Otherwise, you could be seeing want you want to see.

"Understood?"

That's different than 'found it funny and laughed'. His eye movements show clear focused interest on the cup and the fruit inside. He takes a minute to ponder the empty cup before rolling on the floor laughing.

You're being too pedantic.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...Then again, our behaviour comes from "orangutans" not the other way around. ...

No. We have common ancestors with the great apes, like cousins not like grandkids.

But the result is we are closely related which is what you were getting at. If I see my cousin laugh, I don't need to know what's in his head to assume he has a similar emotion as I have when I laugh.

 

[tuco]

That is why its in ".." I assume no kindergarten here.

Point being, people often say "ascribe human traits to .." dogs. How does that work? How do we know which traits are human? Jealousy for example. My dog used to be jealous, I am pretty sure. What else?

We evolved from those animals ..gimme adult break here .. so the way I see it, its often not "human traits". They have human names for them but they are, in one form or another, present in other animals.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That is why its in ".." I assume no kindergarten here.

Point being, people often say "ascribe human traits to .." dogs. How does that work? How do we know which traits are human? Jealousy for example. My dog used to be jealous, I am pretty sure. What else?

We evolved from those animals ..gimme adult break here .. so the way I see it, its often not "human traits". They have human names for them but they are, in one form or another, present in other animals.

The quotes in your sentence did not change the meaning:

Then again, our behaviour comes from "orangutans" not the other way around

What does "not the other way around" mean then?

 

[tuco]

We evolved from those animals we allegedly ascribe humans traits to, not the other way around.

It does not compute for me well. We evolved from X and have trait Y. So where to look for (origins of-reason for-cause-etc) trait Y?

 

[Denver]

"Understood?"

That's different than 'found it funny and laughed'. His eye movements show clear focused interest on the cup and the fruit inside. He takes a minute to ponder the empty cup before rolling on the floor laughing.

You have no idea what he is pondering. Maybe you know that is how orangutans laugh. I don't know either. Which is why I punted this earlier to a primatologist.

You're being too pedantic.

I am being skeptical. Shame on me.

 

[MikeG]

........We evolved from those animals .......

Erm.......no we didn't.

We share a relatively recent common ancestor with orang utan, but we most certainly did not evolve from them (orang utans).

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You have no idea what he is pondering. Maybe you know that is how orangutans laugh. I don't know either. Which is why I punted this earlier to a primatologist.

I am being skeptical. Shame on me.

No, you are being an out of date skeptic. The 'we can never anthropomorphize' fad is no longer in vogue. Current research has found many commonalities between species revealing in more depth how emotions evolved.

To a smaller extent researchers do need to be careful. For example the research with the gorilla KoKo has been rightfully criticized for going much too far in anthropormorphized assumptions. But other researchers have done much more rigorous research showing evidence not just of similar emotions, but also the evolutionary seeds of morality.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Erm.......no we didn't.

We share a relatively recent common ancestor with orang utan, but we most certainly did not evolve from them (orang utans).

I said that but he argued with me.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

We evolved from those animals we allegedly ascribe humans traits to, not the other way around.

It does not compute for me well. We evolved from X and have trait Y. So where to look for (origins of-reason for-cause-etc) trait Y?

Once again, common ancestor, not evolved from. There's a big difference.

We have a common ancestor with the great apes. It makes sense that similar facial expressions represent similar emotions.

 

[Denver]

No, you are being an out of date skeptic. The 'we can never anthropomorphize' fad is no longer in vogue. Current research has found many commonalities between species revealing in more depth how emotions evolved.

If you'd like to quote some real research on how orangutans can watch a trick like that and that it makes them laugh, I'd be happy to educate myself further. But it does your opinion no service by making up quotes that I never said, like that we can never anthropomorphize. I did not say that at all.

To a smaller extent researchers do need to be careful. For example the research with the gorilla KoKo has been rightfully criticized for going much too far in anthropormorphized assumptions. But other researchers have done much more rigorous research showing evidence not just of similar emotions, but also the evolutionary seeds of morality.

And that's great too. But this particular video could be a great example of how correlation does not imply causation. There is an assumption people are making here that in this case it does. All I am saying is be careful. Even skeptics can sometimes get it wrong.

 

[John Nowak]

Denver's right; it's very possible that it just looks like the animal's laughing.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be too surprised to find out that yes, orangutans can be amused by magic tricks.

I'd want to see someone who works with these animals comment.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

We have very long threads in the forum on the evolution of morality and language that cover extensive research in the field. Way back when Piggy and CF Larson were regulars we had quite the heated discussions on the subject.

Here LMGTFY. The top three hits are to science sources. It might do you guys good to get up to speed.

 

[tuco]

Once again, common ancestor, not evolved from. There's a big difference.

We have a common ancestor with the great apes. It makes sense that similar facial expressions represent similar emotions.

To the point I was making it makes no difference, as you agreed And as I said, we could observe dog to see how it reacts to violation of continuity. Do we have anything common with dogs? I would think so.

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edit: btw that is what I am concerned with here, reaction to the "magic" or "trick". Funny or laughing .. that does not concern me right now, that is indeed interpretation:

I wonder what s/he find funny. The magic or the trick?

I don't know if we can ascribe human traits to orangutan reactions. He/she may not have noticed the trick at all, and just gotten bored and fallen back for fun or some other reason.

Still a great video though.

So what do we debate? Because I am not quite sure. That the animal did not notice or did not find it funny or does not understand the difference between magic and trick? I really do not know.

 

[MikeG]

........And as I said, we could observe dog to see how it reacts to violation of continuity. Do we have anything common with dogs? I would think so........

Why ask? Of course we do......a common ancestor, for a start, as we do with every mammal.

 

[tuco]

Why ask? Of course we do......a common ancestor, for a start, as we do with every mammal.

That is why I do not understand why this:

We evolved from those animals we allegedly ascribe humans traits to, not the other way around.

was so wrong. Evolved from .. ok I will say common ancestor next time, irr.

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edit: i just noticed that: ..gimme adult break here .. was ignored. Well .. ok. There is one guy who claims he did not evolve from apes. His problem is not common ancestor however.

 

[Denver]

We have very long threads in the forum on the evolution of morality and language that cover extensive research in the field. Way back when Piggy and CF Larson were regulars we had quite the heated discussions on the subject.

Here LMGTFY. The top three hits are to science sources. It might do you guys good to get up to speed.

I don't think a bunch of people watching this video is going to figure out whether this little guy was reacting to being tricked. Plus the url you sent is about primate laughter, which from a quick search seems to involve vocalization, and I didn't hear any on the video.

My first post on this issue began "I don't know". I doubt me or any of us trying to interpret research in a field that is not our own are going to make much real progress here. So I'll leave it where I started: if you have access to a primatologist, that's where I'd go for the best opinion. If you are happy with your conclusion, be happy. And in any case, it's a fun video.

 

[tuco]

And its fun because assumptions are being made and/or ascribing human traits to that orangutan is being done. Take the "trick" out of the vid and see for yourself