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How to frame the gun lobby argument to cut off debate

Why is it not a "serious affair" that a person should want a gun in case someone tries to break in?

If you read what I typed, in no place did I imply that you could not, or should not if you truly feel the need, own a gun for personal protection.

My comments are about the culture in general. To which I kind of want to add your reply to the list of things that are used to "justify" the ownership of completely impractical weapons.
 
Me thinks if it were a Republican president talking about how neat the pro-life policies of some country are, you'd be singing a different tune.


Of course, "framing the narrative" is simply a justification for hypocrisy and ignoring any points the other side makes. "Rules for thee, but not for me" is a pretty standard and transparent progressive tactic.
 
Me thinks if it were a Republican president talking about how neat the pro-life policies of some country are, you'd be singing a different tune.
:confused:

I have no agenda to put words in anyone's mouth. Why would I care who it was or what the words were?
 
Of course, "framing the narrative" is simply a justification for hypocrisy and ignoring any points the other side makes. "Rules for thee, but not for me" is a pretty standard and transparent progressive tactic.
:id:

BTW, have you addressed the OP examples of putting off any gun regulation debate yet?
 
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Just to add fuel to the fire: the American gun-culture is sick.

While I will disagree with your conclusion, let me add some grist to your mill:

23253197799_cf8aed97e8_c.jpg


A portion of the magazine rack at the Ingles grocery in Blue Ridge, GA yesterday.

A new one for me was a whole magazine based of silencers (suppressors)!

(second shelf up from bottom, third in from right)
 
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:id:

BTW, have you addressed the OP examples of putting off any gun regulation debate yet?


You know what? Calling "framing the narrative" strictly a progressive tactic was a cheap shot. People from both sides do it and we should all agree that it doesn't serve a useful purpose when either side of a debate does it.

My apologies for stating that it's only a progressive tactic.

But that being said, trying to demonstrate a tactic isn't useful by doing it over and over again isn't helpful.
 
So... is denying sales to terrorist suspects going to effectively disarm you? If so, maybe you need to be disarmed? Yeah, I know, there can be problems with who is put on that list, but the government is actually pretty good at having judicial systems in place for appealing such a status... I would assume that there would be a way to get off that list by legally challenging it.

So... No.

I know, they're gun threads. It's easy to lose track of which one you're replying to but traditionally:

The No-Fly thread is thataway =======>>>>>

( For the record, I'm against passing that one too.)
 
You know what? Calling "framing the narrative" strictly a progressive tactic was a cheap shot. People from both sides do it and we should all agree that it doesn't serve a useful purpose when either side of a debate does it.

My apologies for stating that it's only a progressive tactic.

But that being said, trying to demonstrate a tactic isn't useful by doing it over and over again isn't helpful.
Not once in this thread have I said only one side falsely frames the argument.

Nor have I said framing an argument is always deceptive.

There is a difference between framing an argument because it makes a more persuasive point, and framing an argument to manipulate the debate.

For example:
I think moving the place on the continuum of what is or is not allowed is a better argument than
arguing there is evidence X worked in another country​
Neither one is deceptive framing.

Compare that to:
Too soon, don't debate now which is replaced by another tactic to not have the debate,
don't look at this, look over there.​

People who already stand on the gun-lobby side are going to agree with the result: don't have the debate at all. So they are not going to see it as manipulative.

But if indeed the issue was just, don't have the debate now, then one would have to agree to a time the debate could be held. That agreement was never made because all along it wasn't about postponing the debate, it was about not having the debate at all.

Framing by itself is not good or bad. Recognizing how framing is affecting the way people view an argument, on the other hand, is an important skill of a critical thinker.
 
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Yes, "mandatory buyback" sounds much nicer than confiscation. I mean, just because people are proposing to strip people of their Constitutional rights, there's no need to be rude about it. :cool:

Nobody forced me to sell them my guns. I don't know where you got that from. If I refused to comply with the law I suppose in the end someone would have removed them from me....

I lived through the australian "gun ban" and for some strange reason managed to keep my guns. Go figga eh?
 
Nobody forced me to sell them my guns. I don't know where you got that from. If I refused to comply with the law I suppose in the end someone would have removed them from me....

I lived through the australian "gun ban" and for some strange reason managed to keep my guns. Go figga eh?

These two sentences seem to contradict each other.
 
Well, maybe not, but the OP certainly only zeroed in on one "side":

"I want to discuss is the GOP gun lobby talking points..."

Therefore, I think thou dost protest too much.
Since when do I have to balance political sides in my posts? I was not aware of such a forum rule. :rolleyes:

Anyone here was and is still welcome to post specific incidents of dishonest framing by gun regulation promoters.

For example gun buyback vs gun confiscation are two ways to frame the issue. Either wording can obscure the facts depending on what the facts actually were.

No one has yet pointed out my use of the term, gun lobby. I could have said gun owners, or right wing gun fanatics.

I happen to think the talking points originate from the commercial interests, aka the gun lobby. So I choose to use that label.
 
These two sentences seem to contradict each other.


why? If I had refused to keep them secure or actually join a taget shooting club and do target shooting if thats what I claimed I needed them for.


The damn thing was not aimed at genuine firearms user with legitimate reason for ownership and who comply with registration licencing and storage laws. It was designed to pickup all the guns just hanging around in the bottom of drawers or just being kept because the owner just felt like having a gun around the house.

Thats the big difference. In Australia "I just want to own one" was no longer a sufficient reason.

If you were a sporting shooter and were actually participating then this was and still is a valid reason.

ok having said all that I suppose we can get back to the slogans
 
Debra J Saunders gets it. This piece appeared in today's S. F. Chronicle but hasn't been posted on SFgate yet:

http://townhall.com/columnists/debrajsaunders/2015/12/08/the-gun-debate-continued-n2090562

"There is something I forgot to mention in my Sunday column about California's gun laws and their failure to stop the San Bernardino terrorist attack last week: I supported California's 1989 assault weapon ban. The bill passed after a vicious elementary schoolyard shooting in Stockton left five children dead. The shooter had an AK-47. Sacramento passed an assault weapon ban that I believed would save lives because it would limit the speed with which a deranged thug could kill.

Fact is, I knew next to nothing about guns. I wrongly equated semi-automatic weapons with automatic weapons. I wrongly thought the guns banned in the 1989 law were faster than other semi-automatic long guns. I felt virtuous because at least I was supporting something."


"...That's the spirit of the assault weapon ban community; it is a good thing to enact laws that don't work, because it shows you really care. Pat yourself on the back quickly because you've just chased other Americans -- people who fear that this is an early step in a march against their Second Amendment rights -- to their local gun dealer to buy what they think you want to ban.

For the record, I don't think it's a good thing if more people own guns. Irresponsible owners leave loaded weapons where children can find them. Also, more than 20,000 Americans kill themselves with guns annually.

...But this is important: There has been "a remarkable decrease in violent crime and gun crime in the U.S. since the early 1990s, even though the number of firearms has increased by about 10 million every year," Center for Research in Crime and Justice Director James Jacobs told Time magazine. "There's no simple correspondence between the number of firearms in private hands and the amount of gun crime, and I often find it somewhat strange that there seems to be a perception that things are worse than ever when, in reality, things are really better than they've been for decades."
 
Since when do I have to balance political sides in my posts? I was not aware of such a forum rule. :rolleyes:

Anyone here was and is still welcome to post specific incidents of dishonest framing by gun regulation promoters.

For example gun buyback vs gun confiscation are two ways to frame the issue. Either wording can obscure the facts depending on what the facts actually were.

No one has yet pointed out my use of the term, gun lobby. I could have said gun owners, or right wing gun fanatics.

I happen to think the talking points originate from the commercial interests, aka the gun lobby. So I choose to use that label.

I'm in, Josh Sugarmann:

http://www.vpc.org/studies/awacont.htm

"Assault weapons—just like armor-piercing bullets, machine guns, and plastic firearms—are a new topic. The weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons—anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun—can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons. In addition, few people can envision a practical use for these weapons."

-Josh Sugarmann, "Assault Weapons and Accessories in America," 1988[7]
 
why? If I had refused to keep them secure or actually join a taget shooting club and do target shooting if thats what I claimed I needed them for.


The damn thing was not aimed at genuine firearms user with legitimate reason for ownership and who comply with registration licencing and storage laws. It was designed to pickup all the guns just hanging around in the bottom of drawers or just being kept because the owner just felt like having a gun around the house.

Thats the big difference. In Australia "I just want to own one" was no longer a sufficient reason.

If you were a sporting shooter and were actually participating then this was and still is a valid reason.

ok having said all that I suppose we can get back to the slogans
:thumbsup:
 
why? If I had refused to keep them secure or actually join a taget shooting club and do target shooting if thats what I claimed I needed them for.


The damn thing was not aimed at genuine firearms user with legitimate reason for ownership and who comply with registration licencing and storage laws. It was designed to pickup all the guns just hanging around in the bottom of drawers or just being kept because the owner just felt like having a gun around the house.

Thats the big difference. In Australia "I just want to own one" was no longer a sufficient reason.

If you were a sporting shooter and were actually participating then this was and still is a valid reason.

ok having said all that I suppose we can get back to the slogans

Two points: was "home defense" a valid reason for not participating in the buyback program, and what are the membership fees of these shooting clubs?
 
As for the discussions above:
...But this is important: There has been "a remarkable decrease in violent crime and gun crime in the U.S. since the early 1990s, even though the number of firearms has increased by about 10 million every year," Center for Research in Crime and Justice Director James Jacobs told Time magazine. "There's no simple correspondence between the number of firearms in private hands and the amount of gun crime, and I often find it somewhat strange that there seems to be a perception that things are worse than ever when, in reality, things are really better than they've been for decades."
And:
"Assault weapons—just like armor-piercing bullets, machine guns, and plastic firearms—are a new topic. The weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons—anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun—can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons. In addition, few people can envision a practical use for these weapons."

OK, so we are all ignorant of the finer points between a rifle and a machine gun. That is not the point. The point is, rapid fire, large caliber, high volume magazines and rapid fire weapons allow some shooters to kill too many people too fast.

Framing the argument as, "I used to think ... blah blah blah" suggests that all gun regulations are misguided. Fine, tell us then what one needs to do to slow down a rapid fire murderer in a crowd? And don't tell me a good guy with a gun because there are only rare cases this has ever stopped a mass shooting before the police arrived.

To frame it as we are all ignorant sidesteps the issue, it doesn't address it.

As for the violence is going down as gun sales go up, the problem is multifaceted. We have 15-20% of the voting public supporting a jerk for POTUS that wants to ban all visiting Muslims from entering the country. There have been too frequent mass shootings from mentally-ill individuals to disgruntled ex-boyfriends in the last couple years.

The point is rapid fire murderers are one problem. Gun regulations can at least cut back on those and the public is at least interested in stopping such needless carnage.

Better prevention of mentally ill shooters, good investigative efforts dismantling terrorist cult groups and cutting back on rapid fire firepower are needed.

Just telling people they don't understand the difference between a rifle and a machine gun is meaningless chatter to distract from the actual solutions which might cause gun profiteers to sell fewer rapid fire guns.

Do we need other measures? Absolutely. Black and white framing of gun regulation problems is unhelpful except to the gun-lobby.
 
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While I will disagree with your conclusion, let me add some grist to your mill:

[qimg]https://farm1.staticflickr.com/602/23253197799_cf8aed97e8_c.jpg[/qimg]

A portion of the magazine rack at the Ingles grocery in Blue Ridge, GA yesterday.

A new one for me was a whole magazine based of silencers (suppressors)!

(second shelf up from bottom, third in from right)

Aside from any tactical need, suppressors are very nice tools when instructing new shooters - less noise, less recoil, less flinching by an individual that hasn't been exposed to the muzzle blast of an unsuppressed firearm - they also have the advantage of allowing the shooter to retain their sight picture during the recoil cycle.

There's also the fact that aside from the action of suppressing the muzzle blast, adding the weight of a suppressor to the barrel can fine tune barrel harmonics caused by the passage of the projectile through the rifled bore - a barrel that vibrates less tends to be more consistently accurate than a rifle without the harmonics balanced by the addition weight.
 

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