Rich Man's Trick

[CORed]

With all due respect, I say you are in deep denial about the actual facts. What happens when a large passenger plane flies full speed against a wall we just have had to witness with the germanwings tragedy. None of this was seen on the Pentagon lawn. "Conspiracists" this or that, the story is over.

Well sure, because a a plane hitting a mountain is exactly like a plane hitting a building.

 

[Brainster]

I began this thread because I don't see 9/11 as black and white... at least in terms of the response / performance of the US gov... the MIC and the national security state. It appears to me that part of the story was that the gov and the media did not look into the causes of the attack... "they hate us because of our freedoms" Oh really??? Maybe they hate us because of something we did? And if hate is too strong... and slamming planes into buildings will not solve their problems... why do people do such insane things?

There is certainly an element of hatred for our freedoms. Read the opening part of the Looming Tower, which talks about an influential Islamist scholar named Sayid Qtub.

He was critical of things he had observed in the United States: its materialism, individual freedoms, economic system, racism, brutal boxing matches, "poor" haircuts, superficiality in conversations and friendships, restrictions on divorce, enthusiasm for sports, lack of artistic feeling, "animal-like" mixing of the sexes (which "went on even in churches"), and strong support for the new Israeli state.

And:

...the American girl is well acquainted with her body's seductive capacity. She knows it lies in the face, and in expressive eyes, and thirsty lips. She knows seductiveness lies in the round breasts, the full buttocks, and in the shapely thighs, sleek legs—and she shows all this and does not hide it.

Qtub was enormously influential:

Qutb had influence on Islamic insurgent/terror groups in Egypt and elsewhere. His influence on Al Qaeda was felt through his writing, his followers and especially through his brother, Muhammad Qutb, who moved to Saudi Arabia following his release from prison in Egypt and became a professor of Islamic Studies and edited, published and promoted his brother Sayyid's work.

One of Muhammad Qutb's students and later an ardent follower was Ayman Zawahiri, who went on to become a member of the Egyptian Islamic Jihad and later a mentor of Osama bin Laden and a leading member of al-Qaeda.

The idea that they hate us for our freedoms is not as farcical as you think.

 

[epepke]

The OP makes a good point.

The problem with conspiracy theorists is not that they question official narratives or whatever. These things should be questioned.

The problem is that they "question" a stupid, rigidly cartoonish summary of something and come up with an equally stupid, rigidly cartoonish (or more so) alternative. Then when its stupidity and cartoonishness is questioned, they think that you snarf a bunch of crap from the Other Side™. The reason they think you do is that this is what they do, and they cannot imagine anybody else doing better.

 

[JSanderO]

Fundamentalist religions... christians and Jews have the same misogynist views of the western more liberated female.

As I don't care for these sorts of values... I don't practice them... and I don't hate people that do... maybe I feel sorry for them... but not hate. Let them live in their own lands by their own rules... I don't think I want to, nor is it official US policy to change this. Our policies have been about economic exploitation. That they can hate... and with good reason I think.

Believe me.... no one is going to fly a plane into the WTC because they hate boxing... or made up women with legs and hair showing.

 

[Mark6]

121 views in 3 1/2 years - you can't even attract the "low hanging fruit" on the David Icke Forum.

I've come to conclusion, that calling CE a "50-center" is too high a praise. If Putin is paying her 50 cents for, well, anything, he is wasting his money.

 

[Mark6]

Believe me.... no one is going to fly a plane into the WTC because they hate boxing... or made up women with legs and hair showing.

After they have been rejected by the said women enough times... yes they might.

All 9/11 hijackers came from economic classes who benefited from US "exploitation".

 

[tfk]

I stand corrected and I didn't mean literally... I meant they wouldn't bounce off... and not sever the steel.

Analogies are never literal. By definition.

They are, however, supposed to capture & illustrate important features of complex processes. If you're using analogies to highlight factors that some people are not perceiving, then they need to be both accurate & informative.

Unfortunately, there are lots of truther dolts who view the collision in exactly the way that you portrayed it: That, in a collision between objects A & B, either A destroys B or B destroys A.

This cartoonish misunderstanding of how collisions really work is the core of a bunch of stupid assertions, such as:

1. The cloud of dust & debris exiting the north side of the south tower is the nose of UA175, because it has a similar shape.

2. It's the nose of AA77 that created the (non-circular!) circular hole in the brick & lath wall at the AE Drive.

__

So, we agree that your "hot knife thru butter" analogy falls apart.

Why don't you try to come up with an analogy that does not fall apart, but retains the KEY significant points of the collision between the plane & the building.

As always, if you ignore scaling, you are guaranteed to be wrong.

 

[Brainster]

Fundamentalist religions... christians and Jews have the same misogynist views of the western more liberated female.

As I don't care for these sorts of values... I don't practice them... and I don't hate people that do... maybe I feel sorry for them... but not hate. Let them live in their own lands by their own rules... I don't think I want to, nor is it official US policy to change this. Our policies have been about economic exploitation. That they can hate... and with good reason I think.

You're trying to come up with some reason that makes sense to you. Again, read the Looming Tower or Perfect Soldiers if you are interested in what really motivated the hijackers and the planners. Or of course you could go on thinking that they did it with good reason.

 

[Jango]

It is.I guess we'll chalk that up as yet another patently obvious thing you people refuse to acknowledge.

Not true. It is not universal.

 

[Ape of Good Hope]

Fundamentalist religions... christians and Jews have the same misogynist views of the western more liberated female.

As I don't care for these sorts of values... I don't practice them... and I don't hate people that do... maybe I feel sorry for them... but not hate. Let them live in their own lands by their own rules... I don't think I want to, nor is it official US policy to change this. Our policies have been about economic exploitation. That they can hate... and with good reason I think.

Believe me.... no one is going to fly a plane into the WTC because they hate boxing... or made up women with legs and hair showing.

You're trying to come up with some reason that makes sense to you. Again, read the Looming Tower or Perfect Soldiers if you are interested in what really motivated the hijackers and the planners. Or of course you could go on thinking that they did it with good reason.

I'd also recommend "The Hamburg Cell"

http://www.amazon.com/THE-HAMBURG-CELL-Karim-Saleh/dp/B000I2J6KK

 

[ozeco41]

Not true. It is not universal.

The practice of EITHER side employing false global clams OR false global counter claims guarantees one thing.

Discussion will not progress.

Usually stated like this:

Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution.

I note that it does not specify which "side" employs the conspiracy rhetoric.

 

[Jango]

The practice of EITHER side employing false global clams OR false global counter claims guarantees one thing.

Discussion will not progress.

Usually stated like this:

I note that it does not specify which "side" employs the conspiracy rhetoric.

Bogging down is a good way to describe it, and it is for the purpose of blocking progress of the discussion. It's weird how people have a hard time letting down their guard and will not talk from the heart all that often or ever at all. Have a real conversation like you would someone at a party or some social function, like at the bar. Just people talking back and forth about whatever or wherever the conversation takes them. Free flowing open-minded conversations in the realm of politics or history is confronted by an organized oppositional response. For subject matter not heavily stressed in today's educational climate, history and politics are heavily defended nonetheless. The power of anonymity on the Internet has ushered in astroturfing. So at the end of one extreme we have some conspiracy theorists that say and do things in a manner that is drawn out by mental illness. On the other, we have organized oppositional responders being paid to say certain things.

 

[Axxman300]

Okay, let's talk about blowback.

Blowback from what, exactly?

Al Qaeda wanted us out of Saudi Arabia where we were enforcing the No-Fly Zone over Iraq, as per UN Mandate. Before Desert Storm, Al Qaeda had offered to form an army to push Iraq out of Kuwait. The Kuwaitis turned them down.

So Al Qaeda beef with us was over an act they were willing to do themselves.

The rest of the 1990s the US was engaged in protecting Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo.

And for this we deserved 9-11?

Let's look at how Al Qaeda conducted itself in Iraq between 2004 and 2008. They backed a child rapist to run their operation against the US. Zarqawi proceed to attack Shiites in order to start a civil war. From 2003 to 2009 AQI forces murdered 115,217 civilians. (https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/)

This is a good picture of how Al Qaeda would have conducted operations in Kuwait and in Iraq had they gotten their way in 1991. But this is acceptable because it's Muslim on Muslim mass murder?

Then there's the elephant in the room: US support of Israel. UBL mentioned this specifically in his Fatwa, and it must be pointed out that for all of their bluster - Al Qaeda has never attempted to attack Israel. So while AQ apologists constantly paint our relationship with Israel as a key component of Muslim anti-Americanism, the fact is that Israel is no more than window dressing for them. A sock-puppet issue to rally the feeble minded.

The US is simply dealing with countries drawn arbitrarily on a map after WWI, countries that fell under colonial control of European nations for the better part of a century before we showed up. Why wasn't the UK hit with hijacked planes? They've cast the longest shadow in the region. What about France? Those two countries had more Arab blood on their hands than the US can ever hope to equal with conventional weapons, so why did they get a pass?

That's where blowback as a concept falls apart. Al Qaeda bypassed some true historic villains to the Arab people to attack the United States. The reason why was clearly stated by UBL, but then he changed the goal posts again after we ended our presence in Saudi Arabia...which indicates that Al Qaeda is full of crap. They are nothing more than murdering thugs who spin fairy tales to justify their power grabs and mayhem.

...but somehow we're the bad guys.

 

[Jango]

Okay, let's talk about blowback.

Blowback from what, exactly?

Al Qaeda wanted us out of Saudi Arabia where we were enforcing the No-Fly Zone over Iraq, as per UN Mandate. Before Desert Storm, Al Qaeda had offered to form an army to push Iraq out of Kuwait. The Kuwaitis turned them down.

So Al Qaeda beef with us was over an act they were willing to do themselves.

The rest of the 1990s the US was engaged in protecting Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo.

And for this we deserved 9-11?

Let's look at how Al Qaeda conducted itself in Iraq between 2004 and 2008. They backed a child rapist to run their operation against the US. Zarqawi proceed to attack Shiites in order to start a civil war. From 2003 to 2009 AQI forces murdered 115,217 civilians. (https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/)

This is a good picture of how Al Qaeda would have conducted operations in Kuwait and in Iraq had they gotten their way in 1991. But this is acceptable because it's Muslim on Muslim mass murder?

Then there's the elephant in the room: US support of Israel. UBL mentioned this specifically in his Fatwa, and it must be pointed out that for all of their bluster - Al Qaeda has never attempted to attack Israel. So while AQ apologists constantly paint our relationship with Israel as a key component of Muslim anti-Americanism, the fact is that Israel is no more than window dressing for them. A sock-puppet issue to rally the feeble minded.

The US is simply dealing with countries drawn arbitrarily on a map after WWI, countries that fell under colonial control of European nations for the better part of a century before we showed up. Why wasn't the UK hit with hijacked planes? They've cast the longest shadow in the region. What about France? Those two countries had more Arab blood on their hands than the US can ever hope to equal with conventional weapons, so why did they get a pass?

That's where blowback as a concept falls apart. Al Qaeda bypassed some true historic villains to the Arab people to attack the United States. The reason why was clearly stated by UBL, but then he changed the goal posts again after we ended our presence in Saudi Arabia...which indicates that Al Qaeda is full of crap. They are nothing more than murdering thugs who spin fairy tales to justify their power grabs and mayhem.

...but somehow we're the bad guys.

The Middle East is a region of the world, much like Latin America and to a lesser extent Africa, where the U.S. has played a pivotal or supporting role in a whole bunch of chaos that killed a whole bunch of people, some that deserved and many who did not. We're all human beings no matter where we live, the language we speak, the clothes we wear or the cars we drive. In a world as globalized as ours is, we have got to learn empathy for those who live around us.

That's not to be construed as being an apologist for al Qaeda or any other Islamic fundamentalist terrorist cult, because it isn't. It is a recognition that U.S. actions abroad have reactions to them. Say you lived in a country where U.S. bombs are habitually dropped. Say you're the kind of guy that just wants to love his family, children to grow up, work hard and stay out of trouble. Well, bad news for you, but the Taliban, or ISIS or al Qaeda have come into town. What follows their appearance is U.S. air power. Huddled in your house with your family, praying that the planes dropping bombs don't blow your home to smithereens, one bomb explodes nearby and your world suddenly goes dark. When you wake up, you find the scene around you horrific and straight out of a nightmare, some of your family, maybe all of them, are either dead or seriously injured. Are you going to tell me that you would not be angry at the U.S. for dropping bombs? I mean, be realistic. That's how a lot of people, men-women-children, have been recruited into terrorist organizations. Combine that with a population who as a whole are quite religious with groups that present themselves as Allah's soldiers.

The situations created by U.S. or Israeli bombs are ripe for exploitation by the terrorist groups being bombed, whether the bombs were legitimately being deployed or not. Every bomb and bullet has a cost. We don't just get to bomb 5 bad guys at a wedding that also kills 40+ bystanders and think there won't be a response, a consequence somewhere on down the line. Most people have family members and close friends. When someone dies, it tends to send a ripple effect throughout the number of people the deceased were close with prior to death. When a whole bunch of people are killed at once, the ripple effect is obviously much larger, as is the risk of inciting a whole bunch of people to seek vengeance and retribution for the emotional turmoil they've found themselves in. Why anyone would think otherwise is to think of human beings as not being emotional creatures whatsoever.

They are real people with real emotions just like us.

Understanding why our enemies are upset with us is a crucial piece of intelligence.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Okay, let's talk about blowback.

Blowback from what, exactly?

Al Qaeda wanted us out of Saudi Arabia where we were enforcing the No-Fly Zone over Iraq, as per UN Mandate.

Which UN Mandate (not the capitalisation) was that, exactly? Please do not reverse the burden of proof. Thanks in advance.

 

[LSSBB]

/break

Please continue this thread. It sure beats the CD fantasy talk. Don't expect too much of a contribution from me, I haven't done much research beyond reading Clarke's Against All Enemies. I guess Looming Tower is next, after the 15 books currently on my must read list.

/end break

 

[threadworm]

I've been to Sri Lanka. It's very nice.

You don't have to just rely on media reports to verify its existence - you can go there any time. Unless of course there is a conspiracy that made me post that to continue fooling people that Sri Lanka existed, and that all the people waiting to get on plans to Colombo airport are just plants aimed at making the deception more convincing.

Sometimes what's in the media is actually real. Sometimes people do bad things for bad reasons.

 

[JSanderO]

Blow back or insurrection or rebellion is expected and predictable. There is no such thing as the match of cause and effect.. Obviously the terrorist attack represents often not a response to a specific attack but is the result of a series of oppressive policies initiatives by a country. The current big bad buggy man in the ME is the USA with support from its allies. Before this period the Brits and the French were the big bag evil doers stomping on the ME... All three represent the West.... led by the USA.

We are seeing terrorism on Spain, France, Germany, Holland, Denmark, UK and wherever there are disenfranchise Islamic youth who are prepared to die for their beliefs... that the West is evil.

9/11 was the mother of all blowback.... so far..

 

[The Big Dog]

Blow back or insurrection or rebellion is expected and predictable. There is no such thing as the match of cause and effect.. Obviously the terrorist attack represents often not a response to a specific attack but is the result of a series of oppressive policies initiatives by a country. The current big bad buggy man in the ME is the USA with support from its allies. Before this period the Brits and the French were the big bag evil doers stomping on the ME... All three represent the West.... led by the USA.

We are seeing terrorism on Spain, France, Germany, Holland, Denmark, UK and wherever there are disenfranchise Islamic youth who are prepared to die for their beliefs... that the West is evil.

9/11 was the mother of all blowback.... so far..

the concept of "blow back" is victim blaming at its worst.

Several people have pointed you to nuanced detailed discussions of the complexities of the the Middle East and the motivations of the killers, which you have seemingly ignored in exchange for a simplistic "blow back" world model.

 

[JSanderO]

the concept of "blow back" is victim blaming at its worst.

Several people have pointed you to nuanced detailed discussions of the complexities of the the Middle East and the motivations of the killers, which you have seemingly ignored in exchange for a simplistic "blow back" world model.

I do not dismiss nuance and complexity... rebellion, uprising, insurrection are real and do exist. 9/11 was a response to failed something... almost everything is.