Merged General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 2

[Spindrift]

You are manipulated by media because all the rokets are intercepted or what is not fall in dezert while the airplanes of israelies hit palestinians without defense making many victimes destroying homes. So the use of rockets are symbolic compared to targeting people without defense and there are over thousand of victimes and many people, hendreds, were killed..

The Israeli's have something that can intercept Quassam rockets? If that's true the Palestinians should just give up.

 

[Mycroft]

Hey hasbara parrots, take a look at the "hasbara war room" over at IDC Herzliya where 400 volunteer students flood facebook with the "good" stuff day and night. Seems like there isn't much money in shilling these days...

That's rich. A propaganda outlet of paid propagandists exposing a propaganda outlet of volunteers.

 

[Jules Galen]

Butthurt... I wonder what that means...

Use of this is an instant way to let the entire online world that you're a complete idiot. Originally a crass way to make fun of someone who is irrationally upset about something, is now used by total douchebags who don't have a creative or original bone in their body to troll on someone who expresses the slightest displeasure in anything. See also: You/u mad bro?​

Ah. It all makes sense now. You really got me, Jules. I'm forever chastened.

Dud...i wasn't trying to make you look foolish. I was trying to help.

I mean, it seemed to me that you were drifting to the "Dark Side". As the great master Yoda once said about the Dark Side:

"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. Suffering leads to the Fox News Channel."

 

[dudalb]

Well, I think somebody just showed he either has "issues" with Jews, or is just a troll looking to stir things up, take your pick.

 

[Jules Galen]

Well, I think somebody just showed he either has "issues" with Jews, or is just a troll looking to stir things up, take your pick.

Gawd! This is even better material to work with than anything George Bush could provide. So...let me some up your statement:

"You're either with us, or you're a Jew Hater!"


As the great Master Obiwan said: "Only a Sith speaks in absolutes...or maybe a neo-Conservative, too"

 

[uke2se]

Gawd! This is even better material to work with than anything George Bush could provide. So...let me some up your statement:

"You're either with us, or you're a Jew Hater!"


As the great Master Obiwan said: "Only a Sith speaks in absolutes...or maybe a neo-Conservative, too"

Stop trolling. The rest of use are trying to have a conversation.

 

[dudalb]

Nice dodging the issue, Jules.
For the record, I think the only thing as bad a mindless Right wing Ideologue is a mindless Left Wing ideologue.

 

[Mycroft]

Netanyahoo's spokesperson made mincemeat of on British Channel 4:


Mincemeat, that is if you reject the laughable butButBUTHamas "arguments" this guy uses and hands down to the hasbara parrots to justify the mass-murder of civilians.

Did you watch that interview?

I did. The interviewer came across as bat-**** crazy while the Israeli spokesperson was a model of calm, cool, factual rationality.

 

[KumarS]

And several other nation states, including Turkey.

Turkey is pro-US just because of the money
When the US will not be their many commercial partner, they will remember of the Navi Marmara and about how Israeli people killed civilians
Their relations are getting lower and lower

Supported by nobody except:

Russia, China, the US, Canada, etc.

What you are trying view through a very simplistic and mono-issue lens is a fairly complex set of international relationships where various nation states support other nation states where they are of the opinion that by doing so they enhance their owh self-interests.

The US is certnaily not supporting the Palestinians. This is for sure

The world is not divided into the US/Israel v. the Muslim world

The world is divided between the US and Europe aon one side and China + Russia on the other.
In the Middle East we have Israel and the US on one side and Iran on the other.
Now China and RUssia are moving away and starting to back Iran as counter power of US influence in the ME
They ahve already started to send junior low-ranked diplomats at the talk
I expect Russia will start to sell their S300 or S400 to Iran soon

The US has never committed US troops to any of Israel's wars. They do sell the Israelis weapons and offer political support. The US also sells equipment to many other ME States and offers political support - why aren't those states matching Israel's fighting power?

[

They have given military, political and economical aid for decades.

Pakistan is not a Middle Eastern nation - it is in Central Asia. And their arsenal is heavily guarded - by the Pakistani military. Any nation with nukes guards them well.

I suppose the US is helping the military to guard the nukes
But the US cant do the same with Iran, this is why they are fraking out at the thought of Iranian nukes

And yet, there are larger militaries than that of the US (looking at you China). As to your qualifier, this means what exactly to US miiltary power? In the immediate future, will the US lose the ability to project force unless it is able to march or drive there?

The US military budget was as big as the rest of the world combined.
This is not true anymore
Due to China.
Projecting power works against weak nations.
If the opposing nation has an S300 and cant be invaded (like Iran), they you cant project much

Turkey, Egypt and Jordan do.

Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Iraq, Tunisia, Syria, Pakistan, Morocco, Malaysia, Lybia, Kuwait, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Afghanistan do not

Including the group you seem to think Israel should unilaterally hand over land to without assurances that Israel will not place itself in a poor security situation.

Hamas rules Gaza, not the West Bank

Discounting of course the wars in which Israel was attacked, or a US-friendly nation (Kuwait) was invaded.

Dont start strawmen

How many wars in the Middle East have US troops been involved in from 1948 to the present?

Does not matter as they did not need to start many wars

Israel engaged in a preventative war in 1967 which ended up with Israel controlling additional land at the end of the war. Israel held onto these lands as a buffer zone given the actions of the neighbouring states. As Israel exercised de facto sovereignty over these lands, Israeli citizens built in lands that Israel controlled.

The usual lies.
If the reason was security, settlements would not have been built.
It was just land stealing
All the people living in the ME know thins, this is why they hate for the most part Israel

Some countries disputed Israel's right to absorb the conquered territories into their own.

"SOme countries" being the most part of the UN

On several occasions Israel has indicated that they are prepared to accept a 2 state solution using the 1967 borders as a starting point for negotiations as the world has not remained static since 1967.

The usual **********ng to get even more land
Had Israel been serious, they would have just stopped the settlements, gave back the land taken and recognized the Palestinian State.
This was the offer they got from 1988

Correct. And this is proving to be a rather formidable obstacle to starting negotiations.

No, this is proving a rather formidable excuse for Israel to steal more land

correct. Strange isn't it how Israel would rather Hamas not have easy access to weapons? Given Hamas' statements about being at war with Israel, you'd think they'd recognize that a blockade is a recognized and accepted tactic.

Problem is that the blockade wasnt limited to guns and weapons, but also to basic goods in order to punish the population for having voted the wrong way

Which is nice, but doesn't recopnize the reality that th PLO is not the dominant voice in Palestinian affairs anymore.

Which is understandable.
After they tried to appease Israel they got even more land stolen

You've been given these anwers multiple times, you just don't seem to like the answers

Which is nice, but it ignores the reality that the PLO is not the organization speaking on behalf of the Palestinians any more. Two of the biggest are Fatah and Hamas - and Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist.

And I suspect they never will.
They know that time is on their side, that Iran is not under heavy US pressure anymore, that the axis of the world is shifting so if they did not accept Israel yesterday, why accept it today

We've gone over why the casualty figures are lopsided - Engagement of the IDF by Palestinian militants with only light weapons is going to be less than effective, resulting in higher casualties on the Palestinian side. As Hamas's present strategy results in the civilian population of Gaza becoming legitimate military targets.

The problem is that much of the rest of the world, me included I have to say, does not see civilians as "legitimate military targets" and they are quite angry at Israel.
I suspect the Israeli government is killing children despite their image being going down the trash as they are desperate.
They saw that 60 years of history did not make them win against the Arab world, and they know that if they did not win today, when the US was strong and rich, it is unlikely they will win tomorrow, when they will be more isolated.
They know that their days are counted, this is why they are desperately trying to stop Hamas and force them into submission,
But it did not work in the past and will not work today

That is an alternative. Given that the Israeli proposal involves adjustments to the border (exchanging equal sized bits of land to reflect populations on the ground) and recognizing that Israel has a right to exist, lots of people might consider those just considerations.

The problem here is that the world does not move by "just considerations", but simply according to the balance of power.
Until a few years ago, the US was rich and strong so they could dictate law (whether just or injust)
Today this is not true anymore, this is why Putin took Crimea and this is why Iran is able to keep their nukes program
In a few years, the balance will move even more from the axis US/Europe to the axis China/Russia(/Iran).
Which means that the Palestinians will have better political protections, more guns, more money and Israel will be more isolated.
Got it?
When and how it will end nobody cant say, but I suspect there will be an invasion of Israel by neighboring people within 5-10 years

Given that Israel has endorsed the 2 state solution the only thing that seems to be stopping this would be the intransigence of the Palestinian leadership to alter both their charter and their behaviour that would be preventing this from happening (that and the large amount of distrust that has come up between the Israelis and the Palestinians).

The two-state solution that Israel has agreed on was not the one on the 1967 borders

It did for many years.

With their papa the US giving money to Egyptian dictators, working with the Saudis, isolating the Iranians and bombing Iraq
Problem is that all the above counties are getting out from US influence
This is the problem Israel has now

The world is a little more complicated than you seem prepared to accept - the Muslims of the world are not one unified grouping of people with a single set of beliefs. the Sunni/Shia split, exemplified by the destruction of Shia shrines in Iraq by ISIS is a good example.

You also seem to be equating "viewing Israel negatively" with "forcing Israel to do what we think is right, but for the US nuclear arsenal." That would be wrong.

There are many such problems, of course, but none of them cant be solved.
Probably the main reason why of the continuous wars between Sunni and Shia was outside influence (the US) which put gas on the fire

Partially accurate - Pakistan guards its own nukes.


Bombs are easy - accurate long range delivery systems are more challenging....

I do not think they would need a missile to reach the US
I wonder the reason why Pakistna did not use nukes against the US so far is because their arsenal is guarded by the US as well
Small nukes are increbidly small and I believe they can be carried
In any case, nuking Israel with a nuke would not be a problem in case Iran had them
They already have missiles which can reach Israel

 

[KumarS]

Maybe Israel will be wiped out soon. Maybe not. I'm not rooting for genocide,

Me neither, but it is a clear possibility
And the Israeli leader know that, this is why they are so desperate to do such attacks.
My suspect is that Israeli borders will be overrun in a couple of years
http://cdn.filmschoolrejects.com/images/World-War-Z.jpg

->By the way, you should not lie

"You're either with us, or you're a Jew Hater!"

A false dilemma (also called black-and/or-white thinking, bifurcation, denying a conjunct, the either-or fallacy, false dichotomy, fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses, the fallacy of false choice, the fallacy of the false alternative, or the fallacy of the excluded middle) is a type of informal fallacy that involves a situation in which limited alternatives are considered, when in fact there is at least one additional option. The opposite of this fallacy is argument to moderation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_excluded_middle

 

[Mycroft]

No...but I hear more and more from the anti-semite whackos on the web that the Jews will be happy to sell you the blood of Gentile Children for your Passover Matzo Crackers. In fact, you can read all kind of crazy and slanderous stories about the Israelis on the Web....and the Occupation is probably making it worse.

I mean, people of Israel surely don't think the latest fighting in Gaza has done anything for their image, and I think they are right: http://www.timesofisrael.com/deaths-in-gaza-attacks-on-israel-spell-rising-popularity-for-hamas/

And while the impact of Israel's actions are limited to the Arab world in the Article above, I would bet that the rest of the world doesn't view with great favor what Israel is doing, either.

Right. Hamas fighting Israel, regardless of the costs to themselves and the civilians under their watch, raises the popularity of Hamas in the Arab world. That speaks volumes about the Arab world.

It's a War of Propaganda...to see who can become the biggest Victim.

No. Israel takes criticism for not being a victim. People want Jews and Israelis to be passive victims who meekly accept whatever happens to them, and maybe move away when it gets too severe. The anger against Israel is because they don't do that. They do fight back, and they fight to win. It drives the anti-Semite crowd nuts.

 

[uke2se]

Me neither, but it is a clear possibility
And the Israeli leader know that, this is why they are so desperate to do such attacks.
My suspect is that Israeli borders will be overrun in a couple of years
http://cdn.filmschoolrejects.com/images/World-War-Z.jpg

->By the way, you should not lie

Jesus Christ, are you for real or are you simply trolling? You are now comparing the Palestinian population - the people you are supposedly rooting for - to a horde of mindless zombies.

I mean, is anyone taking this **** seriously?

 

[Ziggurat]

The Israeli's have something that can intercept Quassam rockets?

Yes, it's called Iron Dome.

If that's true the Palestinians should just give up.

Yes, they really should.

 

[Mycroft]

I think it is. No other state claims that it has a "right" to exist, and such a right is not recognized in international law.

That's because it's so fundamental it doesn't need to be exerted...except for Israel.

That's covered by territorial integrity and right to self determination. You do not need a new "right to exist" for that, a right no other nation demands or enjoys. (And in case you didn't notice: Israel demands not only a right to exist, but a right to exist as a jewish state.)

Do you think it's preferable for Palestinians to endure another generation of warfare just because they don't want to make this gesture? Does that really seem reasonable to you?

 

[Mycroft]

While Israel wants the Palestinian State destroyed.
Well, not even created..

I think it's reasonable for Israel to want a negotiated peace and at least some basic assurances that a newly created Palestinian state won't just become another platform to launch further attacks against Israel.

 

[Jules Galen]

No. Israel takes criticism for not being a victim. People want Jews and Israelis to be passive victims who meekly accept whatever happens to them, and maybe move away when it gets too severe. The anger against Israel is because they don't do that. They do fight back, and they fight to win. It drives the anti-Semite crowd nuts.

I think your "tripping out". I think you are trying to read other people' minds.

But...I got news for ya': you ain't Mr. Spock. You can't do a Vulcan Mind Meld...so you can't know for sure what's on other people's minds.

Now...Mr. Spock could figure this situation out in a heartbeat. Too bad Spock isn't around to Chair a meeting between Israel and the Palestinians - because Mr Spock could use the Vulcan Mind Meld to figure out the issues quick! And...in the course of a "Mind Meld" Spock saw that someone had a real bad attitude, then Spock could just use the "Vulcan Death Grip" on them. That would be so cool.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

I think your "tripping out". I think you are trying to read other people' minds.

But...I got news for ya': you ain't Mr. Spock. You can't do a Vulcan Mind Meld...so you can't know for sure what's on other people's minds.

Now...Mr. Spock could figure this situation out in a heartbeat. Too bad Spock isn't around to Chair a meeting between Israel and the Palestinians - because Mr Spock could use the Vulcan Mind Meld to figure out the issues quick! And...in the course of a "Mind Meld" Spock saw that someone had a real bad attitude, then Spock could just use the "Vulcan Death Grip" on them. That would be so cool.

And I'm sure the Dominion would LOVE Israel. After all, both are about conquest and extermination.

 

[uke2se]

I think your "tripping out". I think you are trying to read other people' minds.

But...I got news for ya': you ain't Mr. Spock. You can't do a Vulcan Mind Meld...so you can't know for sure what's on other people's minds.

Now...Mr. Spock could figure this situation out in a heartbeat. Too bad Spock isn't around to Chair a meeting between Israel and the Palestinians - because Mr Spock could use the Vulcan Mind Meld to figure out the issues quick! And...in the course of a "Mind Meld" Spock saw that someone had a real bad attitude, then Spock could just use the "Vulcan Death Grip" on them. That would be so cool.

1. Lose every argument.
2. Start acting ridiculous.
3. Pretend you were trolling all along.

That about sums it up?

 

[Mycroft]

But if Israel has a right to exist as a jewish state, if secular jews and israeli arabs wanted to change that, they could not, without first giving up that imaginary right. So why do they need it in the first place?

No agreement between Israel and the PNA would change Israel's ability to reorganize their constitution at a later date.

And if it did, so what? What business is it of the Palestinians? Supposedly they're fighting for their own state, not the right to veto decisions about neighboring states.

 

[Jules Galen]

And I'm sure the Dominion would LOVE Israel. After all, both are about conquest and extermination.

No...the Israelis remind me most of the Klingons - but Klingons who are woosies. Thus, these types of Klingons would fly all over the galaxy and beat their chest and boast a lot. And, they'd whup arse on races that didn't have warp-powered Starships or Phasers - and they would claim this proved their military might. But the first time some Andorian ship shot a Photon Torpedo across their bow, they'd run back to the Homeworld like a scalded dog.