Merged General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 2

[Safe-Keeper]

Well, for a start they built and are building a quite bizarre (and illegal) "barrier"...

Why do you call it bizarre when I'm a 100% sure you know exactly why it was built, and why is "barrier" in quotation marks?

 

[KumarS]

I feel neglected.
For some unknown reasons, nobody seems to be willing to reply to my simple question

Israel took land outside their previous borders (1967) and they keep build settlements.
Shall they be able to retain that land or not regardless what Hamas does?

 

[KumarS]

I feel neglected.
For some unknown reasons, nobody seems to be willing to reply to my simple question

Israel took land outside their previous borders (1967) and they keep build settlements.
Shall they be able to retain that land or not regardless what Hamas does?

 

[KumarS]

Well... they tried to basically give pretty much all of the West Bank (and other land) to the Palestinians in a peace proposal in 2008. The Palestinians never even made a counter-offer. I agree borders should return to for example '67 lines, but... yeah.

They agreed to go back to their 1967 borders and accept a two-state solution?
This comes as news to me

 

[uke2se]

They agreed to go back to their 1967 borders and accept a two-state solution?
This comes as news to me

In 1947 the Israelis accepted a two state solution according to the UN partition plan. The Palestinians didn't.

In 2007 the Israelis, the US and the PLO agreed to work towards a two-state solution. The talks were boycotted by Hamas.

So, there have been offers from Israel for a two-state solution. The first offer were for areas that are considerably smaller than the 1967 borders. The Palestinians and their Arab backers refused and instead launched a war to eradicate Israel. Now we're supposed to feel sorry for these poor bereft souls.

 

[Eddie Dane]

I feel neglected.
For some unknown reasons, nobody seems to be willing to reply to my simple question

Israel took land outside their previous borders (1967) and they keep build settlements.
Shall they be able to retain that land or not regardless what Hamas does?

In my opinion the should give back that land (WB) apart from some bits where it is more practical/advantageous for both parties to do land-swaps.

I also think they should offer Fatah 40 years of free sewage-processing, free water and free electricity on the condition that they keep the Colonists

 

[Aridas]

Force a military response?
Why has not Israel tried to give back the land stolen taken during the 1967 war and later on?

Continually playing dumb and employing that red herring doesn't help your argument. Your continual attempts to change the subject when you can't defend your claims at all are dishonest.

I am not ignoring the negotiation
But I ask ..
Has there been any offer from Israel to recognize the existence of the Palestinian state on the 1967 borders?

You do realize that you're just trying to change the subject from the issue that was at hand... AGAIN, don't you?

Incidentally and unsurprisingly, it looks like there has been such an offer! What are you going to try to change the subject to now, when yet another one of your arguments has been shown to be worthless?

Let's go further, though. Even earlier borders were being negotiated upon, with the US trying to aid Palestine, again, shocking as it might be to you.

I do not get it.
I ask you a question and what I get in return is a personal attack..

Stop dishonestly trying to change the subject over and over when you can't defend your claims and I'll stop calling you out on it. Pointing out what dishonest tactics are being used is not a personal attack.

To me, it looks fairly simple and straightforward.
Israel has took some land outside their previous borders (1967).
And they keep build settlements outside their borders.
Shall they be able to retain that land or not regardless what Hamas does?
I do not see why I can not get a straight reply from you on this matter

You have, in fact, received a straight answer, much as reality is more complex than you seem to wish. I condemned Israel's efforts to build settlements outside their borders. Frankly, though, as long as Hamas refuses to recognize Israel's legitimacy in the first place, the point is moot, given that border agreement between them cannot exist in the first place under those circumstances. If Hamas does see fit to recognize Israel's legitimacy and the Palestinians agree to uphold the relevant agreements and Israel fails to withdraw or continues to try to expand, Israel will be in the wrong without any defense. Until that time, however, it's a grey area, with the most valid objections to building settlements there having very little to do with the points that you're trying to push.

 

[Aridas]

They agreed to go back to their 1967 borders and accept a two-state solution?
This comes as news to me

Because you've continually assumed the worst and didn't even try to investigate far enough to know the offer has been on the table repeatedly? If the Palestinians aren't accepting it, though, that's still Israel's fault, so long as we're going by the incredibly unfair demands that you're trying to make.

 

[Jules Galen]

In my opinion the should give back that land (WB) apart from some bits where it is more practical/advantageous for both parties to do land-swaps.

I also think they should offer Fatah 40 years of free sewage-processing, free water and free electricity on the condition that they keep the Colonists

Well...Jerusalem has been described as the world's "Largest Open-Air Insane Asylum". Now...if your plan were to put into effect (the settlers remained after Israel ceded the land), the West bank would be Jerusalem writ large: an insane asylum of epic proportions!

Man...I wouldn't want that - at any price!

 

[Childlike Empress]

Apropos insanity...

In Israeli court, suspects in Mohammed Abu Khdeir killing to plead insanity

The three main suspects in the kidnapping and murder of 16-year-old Mohammed Abu Khdeir two weeks ago will probably claim temporary insanity, associates of the three said Sunday. [...]

Asked last week whether he had faith in Israel’s judicial system, Mohammed’s father Hussein Abu Khdeir told Haaretz: “I don’t trust them. Not in the least. I am afraid. I am really afraid. I think they will say that [the murderers] were insane and give them a year or two and that’s all.” [...]

Eddie, in case you missed it down on the last page:

Well, for a start they built and are building a quite bizarre (and illegal) "barrier" partly deep inside the green line since the eighties. And yes, the land grab under different pretexts goes on. Here's a one-page UN fact sheet for a good initial overview. Here are more.

 

[uke2se]

In my opinion the should give back that land (WB) apart from some bits where it is more practical/advantageous for both parties to do land-swaps.

The thing that is tricky when it comes to Israel "giving back" land is that they would be giving the West Bank back to Jordan, and the Gaza strip back to Egypt (who doesn't want it). The Palestinians had no land before 1967, so they cannot be "given back" any land.

As it stands right now, the Gaza strip and parts of the West Banks has been given (not given back) to Palestinian Authorities.

 

[Eddie Dane]

Apropos insanity...

In Israeli court, suspects in Mohammed Abu Khdeir killing to plead insanity




Eddie, in case you missed it down on the last page:

Ah thanks.
I'll look into that tonight.

 

[IDB87]

UN report, July 11:

Since the start of the military operation on 7 July, the Israeli military has carried out over 700 air raids, fired more than 1,100 missiles and 100 tank shells, and conducted some 330 naval shellings. These have resulted in the killing of 114 Palestinians, of whom more than two thirds (88 people) are civilians, including 30 children and 17 women, according to preliminary data collected by the Protection Cluster from various sources. Additionally, 680 Palestinians were injured, nearly two thirds of whom are children (221) and women (225), according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health (MoH).

Good lord. Only 88 innocent people have been killed after 1000+ missiles have been fired, 100 tank shells, and 330 naval shellings? That's pretty damn impressive! Props to the IDF for its precision. They could easily take a page from the Russian's playbook of dealing with an insurgency in an urban area and flatten said urban area, but instead they show professionalism and skill. And for this they get attacked! Disgusting.

 

[Eddie Dane]

The thing that is tricky when it comes to Israel "giving back" land is that they would be giving the West Bank back to Jordan, and the Gaza strip back to Egypt (who doesn't want it). The Palestinians had no land before 1967, so they cannot be "given back" any land.

As it stands right now, the Gaza strip and parts of the West Banks has been given (not given back) to Palestinian Authorities.

You are right.

Anyway, eventual transfer of territory should only be done as part of a peace deal.

Unilaterally pulling out of Lebanon and Gaza has led to nothing but trouble.

 

[Eddie Dane]

Well...Jerusalem has been described as the world's "Largest Open-Air Insane Asylum". Now...if your plan were to put into effect (the settlers remained after Israel ceded the land), the West bank would be Jerusalem writ large: an insane asylum of epic proportions!

Man...I wouldn't want that - at any price!

Having been to Jerusalem, it is is a nut-magnet.

Compared to the tourists, the locals (Jew, Muslim, Christian) are really quite normal.

Jerusalem has to deal with tourists coming there to search for...something and the place is infused with mysticism for them. Some flip completely and declare themselves the Messiah, others start carrying a big cross down the streets of the ancient city. They have to be put in an asylum with all the other Messiahs until they are fit enough to be put on a plane back to Utah.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Jonathan Miller, Channel 4:

Home of Dr Nasser al-Tattar, Dir of #Gaza Shifa hospital: went home to rest after 6 days flat out. 5 mins warning.

He got out in time before three missiles destroyed it. Is back to work now.

 

[Ziggurat]

He got out in time before three missiles destroyed it. Is back to work now.

So, CE, how many minutes warning does Hamas give for their missiles?

Hamas started this, they can stop it whenever they want to. All they're accomplishing by continuing is to get more Palestinians killed, yet they do not stop. The logical conclusion is that this is, in fact, the goal: Hamas wants dead Palestinians.

 

[KumarS]

Continually playing dumb and employing that red herring doesn't help your argument. Your continual attempts to change the subject when you can't defend your claims at all are dishonest.

Change the subject ?
It is about one week that I keep asking the same quetsion: why the Israeli do not accept the two-state solution based on the 1967 borders?

Incidentally and unsurprisingly, it looks like there has been such an offer! What are you going to try to change the subject to now, when yet another one of your arguments has been shown to be worthless?

Err..
Let alone that this site does not appear to me extremely authoritative, there is just written that the Israeli government uses the pre-1967 borders as a "baseline" for the future status.
Which does not mean the Israeli government has agreed that they would go back to the pre-1967 borders

It is the Palestinians that are OK with the pre-1967 borders
The Palestinian Declaration of Independence of 15 November 1988, which referenced the UN Partition Plan of 1947 and "UN resolutions since 1947" in general, was interpreted as an indirect recognition of the State of Israel, and support for a two-state solution. The Partition Plan was invoked to provide legitimacy to Palestinian statehood. Subsequent clarifications were taken to amount to the first explicit Palestinian recognition of Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution

Security Council resolutions dating back to June 1976 supporting the two-state solution based on the pre-1967 lines were vetoed by the United States,[10] which argued that the borders must be negotiated directly by the parties. The idea has had overwhelming support in the UN General Assembly since the mid-1970s

Here is the full speech of Nethanyahu speech in 2009
http://www.haaretz.com/news/full-text-of-netanyahu-s-foreign-policy-speech-at-bar-ilan-1.277922

Please tell me where he accepts the two-state solution based on 1967 borders

You have, in fact, received a straight answer, much as reality is more complex than you seem to wish. I condemned Israel's efforts to build settlements outside their borders.

But your position, as mine, is irrelevant.
The position of the US Government is what matters.
The point is: why the US government is still giving military aid to Israel despite the settlements?

Frankly, though, as long as Hamas refuses to recognize Israel's legitimacy in the first place, the point is moot, given that border agreement between them cannot exist in the first place under those circumstances. If Hamas does see fit to recognize Israel's legitimacy and the Palestinians agree to uphold the relevant agreements and Israel fails to withdraw or continues to try to expand, Israel will be in the wrong without any defense. Until that time, however, it's a grey area, with the most valid objections to building settlements there having very little to do with the points that you're trying to push.

And here we go..
Butbutbutbut Hamas!

 

[KumarS]

In my opinion the should give back that land (WB) apart from some bits where it is more practical/advantageous for both parties to do land-swaps.

I also think they should offer Fatah 40 years of free sewage-processing, free water and free electricity on the condition that they keep the Colonists

But they are not (giving back that land).
Nor is the US Government pressing them to give back that land

So does not this mean that, together with Hamas, the Israeli and the US are also on the bad side?

 

[Ziggurat]

But they are not (giving back that land).
Nor is the US Government pressing them to give back that land

So does not this mean that, together with Hamas, the Israeli and the US are also on the bad side?

If Israel gave all that land back, would it bring peace?

No, it would not.

So why should Israel do so?