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Evolutionary Theory of Cancer

shadron

Philosopher
shadron
Joined
Sep 2, 2005
Messages
5,918
While looking into basic research on ionizing radiation's effects on cancer, I ran into a very interesting series of six 15 minute lectures on the evolutionary view of cancer. They are delivered by Professor Stearns of Yale University, and are four of a much larger series of general health topics as related to evolution.

One of the overriding themes: cancer is the result of a tradeoff that evolution created in which maintenance of the body after reproductive age is traded against flexibility and superior maintenance of the body up to the end of reproduction.

One startling fact: If it were not for other reasons for dying first, everyone would probably die of either breast or prostate cancer eventually.

These are fairly into biological technicalities; for example, he assumes the listener knows what the soma and somatic cells are.. Anyway, here you go; enjoy. I'm not trying to be funny; I believe that one should know his enemies.






 
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shadron said:
One startling fact: If it were not for other reasons for dying first, everyone would probably die of either breast or prostate cancer eventually.
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? How is that startling? (PS you forgot lung cancer)
 
bigred said:
? How is that startling? (PS you forgot lung cancer)
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It was startling to me.

No, I didn't. I was quoting him. Apparently, breast and prostate cancer are the ones that will get you eventually. Lung cancer might, or might not.
 
The best explanation I've seen is that after many many replications, the telomeres at the ends of the DNA shorten enough that replication errors occur and the cell dies. Enough cellular death and the person dies. Telemerase is an enzyme that can 'turn on' telomeres, adding reproductivity. Problem in cancer is that the excess telomerase turns on mutated cells, that reproduce quickly turning into a tumor rather than the individual mutated cell just dying off. As we age and experience a higher number of mutations the telomerase naturally turns off, preventing but shortening the life of the individual. This usually happens after reproductive age is over, so the Gene is passed on to the next individual, perpetuating the gene, but sacrificing the individual.
 
For some random reason, I got hooked on the vitamin K2 a year or so ago. Seems it is made out of K-1 by intestinal bacteria. E-Coli and Salmonella are the big players. Anyhow, it is critical for calcium metabolism. Which in turn is critical to soooo much good health. Artery disease, heart valve calcification, hypertension, osteoporosis,.... and boosts HDL. Also fights the cause of diabetic foot disease. Maybe even good for pancreatic function. AAAaand, fights cancer.

So I've developed a theory that all these modern diseases are of K2 deficiency. NOT inborn evolutionary trade offs. Though there may be other as yet undiscovered items. We didn't even know that K2 existed until the 70s.

Try Googling <k2 rotterdam> and K2 +"anydamnhealth concern". There are scientific studies that show negative linkage to soo many probs. Higher K2, lower incidence of soooo much. And those studies are sponsored by governments, NOT Big Pharma. There is no profit motive to exaggerating efficacy. It's not patentable. It seems to be for real. Rotterdam showed 80% less artery disease, 50% less cancer.

And what else have we not found yet?
 
shadron said:
One of the overriding themes: cancer is the result of a tradeoff that evolution created in which maintenance of the body after reproductive age is traded against flexibility and superior maintenance of the body up to the end of reproduction.
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Dying is a feature of evolution, not a bug. :)
 
casebro said:
For some random reason, I got hooked on the vitamin K2 a year or so ago. Seems it is made out of K-1 by intestinal bacteria. E-Coli and Salmonella are the big players. Anyhow, it is critical for calcium metabolism. Which in turn is critical to soooo much good health. Artery disease, heart valve calcification, hypertension, osteoporosis,.... and boosts HDL. Also fights the cause of diabetic foot disease. Maybe even good for pancreatic function. AAAaand, fights cancer.

So I've developed a theory that all these modern diseases are of K2 deficiency. NOT inborn evolutionary trade offs. Though there may be other as yet undiscovered items. We didn't even know that K2 existed until the 70s.

Try Googling <k2 rotterdam> and K2 +"anydamnhealth concern". There are scientific studies that show negative linkage to soo many probs. Higher K2, lower incidence of soooo much. And those studies are sponsored by governments, NOT Big Pharma. There is no profit motive to exaggerating efficacy. It's not patentable. It seems to be for real. Rotterdam showed 80% less artery disease, 50% less cancer.

And what else have we not found yet?
Click to expand...

K vitamins like many other fat soluble vitamins are not stored in any appreciative amounts by the body, but excreted if more is ingested than needed. If you eat a healthy diet in K rich foods, (Vegetables, legumes, eggs, meat) all K supplements do is empty your wallet and give you expensive urine.

Any K supplement should NOT be used if you are on OACs (Oral AntiCoagulants) such as Warfaren (Coumadin).
 
Belz... said:
Dying is a feature of evolution, not a bug. :)
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Yes, and the weak and unhealthy dying is also a feature of evolution. I wonder what will happen since we interfered with the weak/unhealthy dying before reproductive age...? Morally it is a good idea but evolutionarily it is a recipe for disaster.
 
The fancy bacterial mat that is you spawned off several new mats. Who cares what happens to the old colony?

Also: living forever is hard y'all. You have to keep growing slowly forever, which is problematic for land animals.

Also there is a minor evolutionary pressure to get the old folks out of the reproduction. This leads to faster generations, and thus more experimentation to scour the fitness gradient descent space.
 
shadron said:
It was startling to me.

No, I didn't. I was quoting him. Apparently, breast and prostate cancer are the ones that will get you eventually. Lung cancer might, or might not.
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.
My proctologist tells me I have a young man's prostate.
I'm keeping it!
 
PossumPie said:
K vitamins like many other fat soluble vitamins are not stored in any appreciative amounts by the body, but excreted if more is ingested than needed. If you eat a healthy diet in K rich foods, (Vegetables, legumes, eggs, meat) all K supplements do is empty your wallet and give you expensive urine.

Any K supplement should NOT be used if you are on OACs (Oral AntiCoagulants) such as Warfaren (Coumadin).
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Wasn't I quite specific about K2? It's not the coagulant vitamin. It is made from K1 by intestinal bacteria. And may explain the Mediterranean Paradox.

As far as dietary sources, a foul tasting soy product called Natto and Goose liver Pate are about it. Or poop, which is where many animals get theirs. Natto's source bacteria is an e-coli, the goose's producer is the inherent Salmonella. I'll take pills, thanks.
 
Belz... said:
Dying is a feature of evolution, not a bug. :)
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Oh, indeed. However, as an individual I can only disapprove of cancer. Short-sighted and selfish, I'm sure. I would prefer something that timed you out and gave you 15 minutes to clear your desk.

Anyway, there's more to it than just that. Cancer is an unintentional killer, a possibility only because stem cells are otherwise so useful, and learning about it will improve lots of lives.

I often tell people who complain about radiation causing cancer that at present, there is about a 43% chance that cancer will be diagnosed in their lifetimes, up from 37% 100 years ago. The difference isn't in nuke testing since 1945 or even in an ever-dirtier environment; it's that we've had such huge success in cutting down cancer's competition. If we ever conquer heart disease and make of ourselves The Wonderful One-Hoss Shay, that percentage will rise to well over 50%. A glorious day for humanity.
 
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PossumPie said:
Yes, and the weak and unhealthy dying is also a feature of evolution. I wonder what will happen since we interfered with the weak/unhealthy dying before reproductive age...? Morally it is a good idea but evolutionarily it is a recipe for disaster.
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Oh, in 200,000 years or so.
 
casebro said:
Wasn't I quite specific about K2? It's not the coagulant vitamin. It is made from K1 by intestinal bacteria. And may explain the Mediterranean Paradox.

As far as dietary sources, a foul tasting soy product called Natto and Goose liver Pate are about it. Or poop, which is where many animals get theirs. Natto's source bacteria is an e-coli, the goose's producer is the inherent Salmonella. I'll take pills, thanks.
Click to expand...

K2 certainly is one of the fat soluble coagulant vitamins. Two vitamin K2 homologues, menaquinone-4 (MK-4) and menaquinone-7 (MK-7), have been used as nutrients by the food industry and as nutritional supplements to support bone and cardiovascular health. As fat solubles, excess intake is simply urinated out as waste.
 
PossumPie said:
As fat solubles, excess intake is simply urinated out as waste.
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Would someone explain something to me?

*Water soluble vitamins are eliminated in the urine.

*Fat soluble vitamins build-up in your fatty tissue.

*These were taught to me in chemistry classes, and in decades working in a food chemistry lab.

What PossumPie said and what I was taught are not reconcilable.

Someone please 'splain that.
 
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