Obvious solution in our face, we fund research to preserve AGW causing industries

[Polaris]

Your feeling terrible/better is definitely a health claim, and one we run into all the time with organic, magnet therapy, reiki, chiropractic, etc. and should be treated as such.

There's also flat-out boredom. I tend to eat a lot less meat per meal than the average American (health/wanting to look good naked reasons) but without meat at all, ever, options become much more limited.

I can somewhat relate to Manopolus. The one time I tried veganism I lasted an entire week - then drove straight to the Teriyaki Temple and wolfed down a platter of bourbon chicken. Instant mood elevation.

 

[Manopolus]

Your feeling terrible/better is definitely a health claim, and one we run into all the time with organic, magnet therapy, reiki, chiropractic, etc. and should be treated as such.

It is only a health claim if I say that this is a result of ill health effects or bad nutrition. I don't claim to know what causes it, and nor do I contend that it is symptomatic of ill health. I have merely experienced the results.

For an extreme example of this, I could simply say that I won't quit smoking because it makes me feel really nasty when I don't smoke regularly. That would not be a suggestion that smoking is good for my health. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that meat eating is an addiction... I'd guess it's more of an instinct of a sort, but am making no actual claims other than what I have experienced.

 

[Cain]

You could use the same stupid joke about all sorts of things. I don't see a whole lot of people giving up, say, electricity for instance.

For some strange reason, electricity strikes me as vital to the economy. Shocking. Let's use the imagination test: can we imagine an advanced, progressive future without electricity? Can we imagine an advanced, progressive society where people do not breed billions of animals for food?

Yes, there are things that should probably be done to help the environment, slow AGW, etc., but these things pretty much have to be done at the institutional level in order for them to work at all.

Good point. It's not like the government pours billions of dollars into the animal industry. Before people voluntarily give up meat, let's see the market price reflect the real cost to society.

 

[The_Animus]

If you're suggesting everyone becomes vegan, count me out. There's no way in hell. I straight up don't feel right when I don't eat meat for pretty much every meal. It's that simple... I don't know why that is, but it is what it is. No silly requests that make me feel like I'm weak, sick, and hungry all the time will even be entertained. Perhaps a person can get used to it, but most of us won't even try abstaining from meat past the first day unless it's just completely unavailable.

I've noticed this as well. Maybe not every meal, but there have been instances where I tried switching to a heavy veggie diet and I didn't feel right either. I've noticed similar things with certain foods as well such as apples.

And dear OP, not every person is the same, just because most people can switch with no I'll effects doesn't mean everyone can or its faking it. Just like most people get tired when running but they found one guy who would die of dehydration before getting tired because of some abnormal thing about his body.

So yeah i'm all for reducing meat consumption, but never cutting it out completely

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

It is only a health claim if I say that this is a result of ill health effects or bad nutrition. I don't claim to know what causes it, and nor do I contend that it is symptomatic of ill health. I have merely experienced the results.

For an extreme example of this, I could simply say that I won't quit smoking because it makes me feel really nasty when I don't smoke regularly. That would not be a suggestion that smoking is good for my health. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that meat eating is an addiction... I'd guess it's more of an instinct of a sort, but am making no actual claims other than what I have experienced.

Actually, you've made a number of claims beyond your experience and made decisions based on your subjective experience in contradiction of science. You just made another one in this post.

If someone said that their crystals made them feel better in a manner unrelated to health or science we know of, and cited give five their friends, would anyone on this forum let that slide? We should be skeptical of our experiences, not walling them off from questioning whilst making decisions and claims about the general public based on them.

And yes, not eating meat affecting your mood is most definitely a health claim.

 

[The_Animus]

Your feeling terrible/better is definitely a health claim, and one we run into all the time with organic, magnet therapy, reiki, chiropractic, etc. and should be treated as such.

Like your claim someone you know nothing about and have never meet knows less about themselves than you. I look forward to your attempt to win the million.

You should become a doctor. "Nah, your stomach doesn't really hurt, you're just trying to get out of school."

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I've noticed this as well. Maybe not every meal, but there have been instances where I tried switching to a heavy veggie diet and I didn't feel right either. I've noticed similar things with certain foods as well such as apples.

And dear OP, not every person is the same, just because most people can switch with no I'll effects doesn't mean everyone can or its faking it. Just like most people get tired when running but they found one guy who would die of dehydration before getting tired because of some abnormal thing about his body.

So yeah i'm all for reducing meat consumption, but never cutting it out completely

Dear The Animus, show some evidence that there are a vast majority (as was being claimed here) or even significant number of "veggie intolerant" people. Again, we deal with people making wooly "feeling" claims that aren't based in reality all the time. The burden of proof is on you to show that these are valid, contradicting all all nutrition science we have so far. What is this magic about meat apart from the nutrients we have studied and found can be satisfied elsewhere?

 

[The_Animus]

Actually, you've made a number of claims beyond your experience and made decisions based on your subjective experience in contradiction of science. You just made another one in this post.

If someone said that their crystals made them feel better in a manner unrelated to health or science we know of, and cited give five their friends, would anyone on this forum let that slide? We should be skeptical of our experiences, not walling them off from questioning whilst making decisions and claims about the general public based on them.

And yes, not eating meat affecting your mood is most definitely a health claim.

No because crystals aren't made up of a variety of chemicals you ingest which have varying effects on different people.

 

[The_Animus]

Dear The Animus, show some evidence that there are a vast majority (as was being claimed here) or even significant number of "veggie intolerant" people. Again, we deal with people making wooly "feeling" claims that aren't based in reality all the time. The burden of proof is on you to show that these are valid, contradicting all all nutrition science we have so far. What is this magic about meat apart from the nutrients we have studied and found can be satisfied elsewhere?

Why would I show evidence for something I haven't claimed. In fact the person who I quoted and agreed with didn't say that in the part I quoted either.

You are the one claiming no one can possibly have ill effects from switching to vegan. You are the one equating chemicals we ingest to magic crystals.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

No because crystals aren't made up of a variety of chemicals you ingest which have varying effects on different people.

And we've studied those chemicals in meat and food in general. Found no mystery meat nutrient.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Why would I show evidence for something I haven't claimed. In fact the person who I quoted and agreed with didn't say that in the part I quoted either.

You are the one claiming no one can possibly have ill effects from switching to vegan. You are the one equating chemicals we ingest to magic crystals.

So you are just handwaving and arguing from ignorance. You have no idea if your analogies are accurate, but feel they could be... Because chemicals and people can differently !

Nope. Faced with nutritional science and the major dietary groups, that I helpfully linked to, that just doesn't hold water.

 

[Bluegill]

You could use the same stupid joke about all sorts of things. I don't see a whole lot of people giving up, say, electricity for instance.

Almost everyone I know makes efforts to conserve electricity, which I would consider as falling into that category.

I never would have guessed that the idea of cutting back on meat consumption as an environmentally beneficial practice would have been met with such negativity on this forum.

 

[Bluegill]

Almost everyone I know makes efforts to conserve electricity, which I would consider as falling into that category.

I never would have guessed that the idea of cutting back on meat consumption as an environmentally beneficial practice would have been met with such negativity on this forum.

Aaarg. Never mind, I just re-read the OP, which renders my point pointless.

 

[stanfr]

I just got back from a long drive through Kansas, and everytime i make that drive the smell of the feedlots reminds me that i really should cut back or eliminate my meat consumption. But it's Two Burger Tuesday at the local pub...
It would be so much easier just to come up with a good disease to wipe out 9/10 of the population...problem solved!

 

[The_Animus]

So you are just handwaving and arguing from ignorance. You have no idea if your analogies are accurate, but feel they could be... Because chemicals and people can differently !

Nope. Faced with nutritional science and the major dietary groups, that I helpfully linked to, that just doesn't hold water.

I hope some day you can respond to what people actually said instead of erecting straw men and moving goalposts. You've shown zero intellectual honestly thus far. I have no incentive to discuss something with someone who intentionally misrepresents what was said. Keeps that post count high though.

 

[Manopolus]

Actually, you've made a number of claims beyond your experience and made decisions based on your subjective experience in contradiction of science. You just made another one in this post.

If someone said that their crystals made them feel better in a manner unrelated to health or science we know of, and cited give five their friends, would anyone on this forum let that slide? We should be skeptical of our experiences, not walling them off from questioning whilst making decisions and claims about the general public based on them.

And yes, not eating meat affecting your mood is most definitely a health claim.

I'm not the one suggesting a policy change... trying to take the "skeptical" point of view here is a bit disingenuous, don't you think? You're the one suggesting something other than the current "default" and making a positive claim.

My contribution has merely been to voice objections... none have which have come from anything other than my own experience. I claim nothing other than what I have experienced. It is up to you to convince me that this those experiences are invalid... or to overcome those objections. As of yet, I have seen nothing of the sort.

It certainly isn't useful for you to try to tell me "no you don't feel different when you don't eat meat, because that's a health claim." Such arguments are pointless. You cannot in good faith tell me what I have or have not experienced. It's furthermore rather bizarre of you to make the claim that what I state as my argument isn't really my argument and instead I'm trying to say something else entirely which I myself have not stated. That's so bad that it isn't even good enough to be called a straw man.

I think part of your problem here is that even if I can somehow be proven ethically wrong by some standard, I am still perfectly content to be wrong in this case and won't even bother to feel guilty about it. Trying to shame me will get you absolutely nowhere. I don't think that's a particularly uncommon attitude regarding this notion --on the contrary, it seems to be the norm -- which makes it impractical to suggest as an actual viable solution.

In summary, all I've done is inform you that I'm not interested in joining your cult (which is pretty much what I see the vegan/vegetarian thing as), and gave you a few reasons. Perhaps you should be happy that I even bothered to respond... because I usually don't bother responding to attempts at dogmatic indoctrination of this sort. Perhaps you'd like it better if I just accepted on faith that vegetarianism will somehow magically prevail and solve all the problems of the world if I'd only give it a try, but that's just not quite my nature. I don't see it as a practical solution, and I don't think that my own particular contribution is even notable in the larger scale... you've got billions more people to convert than me, and I'm pretty sure that you'll continually fail any attempt to do so.

 

[Polaris]

And we've studied those chemicals in meat and food in general. Found no mystery meat nutrient.

This is because there's no nutrients in mystery meat.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Suddenly I want a cheeseburger.

 

[TimCallahan]

. . . (megasnip) . . .

Now some are playing games by saying "reduce" meat consumption, but that is just a cop out.
Prepare to see more ridiculousness like this before we start trying to actually address the issue.

The ridiculous thing is that it is so uselessly optional/preferential. Transport and energy have actually enable us to greater achievements. Hamburgers and milk, not so much.

Concerning the hilited area, if people ate a lot less meat, particularly a lot less beef, it would definitely lower the amount of greenhouse gases produced and the amount of energy consumed. So, why is that a cop out?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Concerning the hilited area, if people ate a lot less meat, particularly a lot less beef, it would definitely lower the amount of greenhouse gases produced and the amount of energy consumed. So, why is that a cop out?

Because anything short of 100% vegan is unacceptable!