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WTC7: The Facts

Dr Adequate

Banned
D
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Aug 31, 2004
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Please help to assemble the factiest facts, from the primest of primary sources. Then I will put it together, format it nicely, and put it on the SkepticWiki.

Last time we did this, we made the [swiki]9/11 Glossary[/swiki], which is the top Google hit it for "9/11 Glossary" and second for 9/11 Glossary. But people google on WTC7 much more frequently, and it would be nice to give them something to look at.

Thanks. So, what do we need?

(1a) Eyewitness accounts of the holes in WTC7.

(1b) Photographs.

Now I know I've seen a photograph of the south face damage, but all I can turn up is picture after picture of the SW corner damage.

(1c) Do we know what made the hole or have accounts of the impact?

NIST's account of what hit where is here, but what are the primary sources, what's the evidence?

(2a) Eyewitness accounts of the fire at WTC7.

(2a) Photographs.

This has a certain eerie drama ...

wtc7fire2.jpg


BTW, the photographs on the internet tend to be unsourced. Ideally, we would know who took which photographs.

(3) Firemen and other first responders saying that they expected collapse.

(4) Video of the collapse.


But is there a better one? I've looked at a few ... did no-one think to get in a good position, point a camera at WTC7, and wait?

People can be so inconsiderate.

(5) What do we know about collapse times? Do we have seismic evidence?

(6) The experts' views on the collapse

FEMA on WTC7.

NIST on WTC7.

(7) A good photo showing that it didn't "implode symmetrically into its own footprint".

Something like this?

b7_debris3.jpg


WTC7 debris squashed up against the Verizon building.

Or this one's rather good.

4238.jpg


(8a) What exactly did Silverstein say involving the word "pull"?

I remember getting a call from the uh Fire Department Commander telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire. And I said y'know we've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smarterst thing to do is, is pull it. Ah, and they made that decision to pull, and then we watched the building collapse.​

(8b) A video of it.


PBS, America Rebuilds: A Year at Ground Zero. Premiered September 10, 2002 (linky).

(8c) Silverstein on what Silverstein meant:

The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) conducted a thorough investigation of the collapse of all the World Trade Center buildings. The FEMA report concluded that the collapse of Seven World Trade Center was a direct result of fires triggered by debris from the collapse of WTC Tower 1.

In the afternoon of September 11, Mr. Silverstein spoke to the Fire Department Commander on site at Seven World Trade Center. The Commander told Mr. Silverstein that there were several firefighters in the building working to contain the fires. Mr. Silverstein expressed his view that the most important thing was to protect the safety of those firefighters, including, if necessary, to have them withdraw from the building.

Later in the day, the Fire Commander ordered his firefighters out of the building and at 5:20 p.m. the building collapsed.​

Statement by Dara McQuillan for Silverstein Properties, September 9 2005. (Linky.)

(8d) Do we have a quote from anyone involved in demolition saying: "No, 'pull' definitely doesn't mean that"?

I have this quote attributed to implosionworld.com by a Truther named Joël v.d. Reijden:

There is no such phrase in explo-demo. Most likely he [Silverstein] meant "pull out" as in have people evacuate. Conventionally, "pull a building" can mean to pre-burn holes in steel beams near the top floor and affix long cables to heavy machinery, which then backs up and causes the structure to lean off its center of gravity and eventually collapse. But this is only possible with buildings about 6-7 stories or smaller. This activity was performed to bring down WTC 6 (Customs) after 9/11 because of the danger in demolishing conventionally.​

However, this appears to have been an email communication.

(8e) That "pull building 6" video.

There's an mp3 of the audio here.

(8f) Evidence that it was building 6 was pulled down rather than blown up?

(8g) Summarize 'pull' woo, mock it.

(9) A list of minor WTC7 woo

E.g. the "couldn't find the paper shredder" hypothesis, why isn't the NIST report out yet, blah blah.

(10) Who are the main sources of WTC7 woo?

(We already did a Who's Who of [swiki]9/11 Conspiracy Theorists[/swiki], so just a list of names will do.)

(11) Anything else?

---

Thank you again for participating. Assuming that you do. If not, may the flaming monkeys of wrath afflict you unto the seventh generation.
 
(5) What do we know about collapse times? Do we have seismic evidence?
Click to expand...

Regarding seismic, you will find the information here:
http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_WTC/

The first and last file are the relevant files for WTC 7. But it is not a straight forward matter to interpret what they say. The truthers have uncritically used the times given for signal duration in the fact sheet as their source for their free fall claims in relation to WTC 1 and 2, while the videos of course tells a different story. The explanation is of course that no significant seismic waves were generated before the first large piece of debris broken loose hit the ground.

ETA
See also FAQ #5 and #6 regarding WTC 1 and 2 here:
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

In other words the WTC 1 and 2 did not offer enough resistance to the falling mass to generate significant seismic waves.

The recording for WTC 7 contains what looks like two distinct seismic events, consistent with the collapse of the east penthouse, then a pause before the collapse of the west penthouse and the remainder of the building, as seen in the videos.
 
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Gosh, he's good at first responder quotes, isn't he?

The PROTEC document is excellent too.

We have never once heard the term 'pull it' being used to refer to the explosive demolition of a building, and neither has any blast team we've spoken with. The term is used in conventional demolition circles, to describe the specific activity of attaching long cables to a pre-weakened building and maneuvering heavy equipment (excavators, bulldozers etc) to 'pull' the frame of the structure over onto its side for further dismantlement.​

and

This author and our research team were on site when workers pulled over the six story remains of WTC6 in late fall 2001.​

Though it would be nice to get that bit from someone else as well.
 
Norseman said:
Regarding seismic, you will find the information here:
http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010911_WTC/

The first and last file are the relevant files for WTC 7. But it is not a straight forward matter to interpret what they say. The truthers have uncritically used the times given for signal duration in the fact sheet as their source for their free fall claims in relation to WTC 1 and 2, while the videos of course tells a different story. The explanation is of course that no significant seismic waves were generated before the first large piece of debris broken loose hit the ground.
Click to expand...
I guess I hadn't really been thinking about what seismic data alone would tell us.

So, let's make the question: "What do we know about the time it took to collapse?"
 
Am I just imagining seeing pictures of the south face damage?

After all, now I think about it, you'd have to be south of WTC7 to take them, which was not Mr Fun Happy Place To Be on 9/11.
 
There are quite a few decent pictures in the "Leaked" NIST documents on the prison planet website.

Alex Jones tried to paint a picture around the statement of "an unusual event". I don't think he realized that the article actually provides evidence of very extensive damage to building 7. Here is his page --- http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2008/062508_unusual_event.htm

The document that really caught my eye is "WTC 7 chapter Pitts". here is the link to the direct Microsoft word download --- http://www.infowars.net/WTC7Report/WTC 7 chapter Pitts.doc

It is 172 pages and very detailed. For the damage to the South Face with pictures, start at page 90.

It is a very interesting read.
 
A good source of pictures and video is from fire photographer Steve Spak who took
many shots from close up after many of the main stream reporters/photgraphers
had pulled back - which is why you have many shots of the North face of WTC 7
yet little of the damaged South.

Spak was featured in the recent BBC documentary on WTC 7 and beleive his segment
is still available.
 
Jwheelz said:
The document that really caught my eye is "WTC 7 chapter Pitts". here is the link to the direct Microsoft word download --- http://www.infowars.net/WTC7Report/WTC 7 chapter Pitts.doc

It is 172 pages and very detailed. For the damage to the South Face with pictures, start at page 90.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, between teh internets and Microsoft Word, I can't read the pesky file. "The document name or path is not valid", says Word.

If you (or anyone else) can stick the pictures of the south face damage somewhere where I can see 'em, I'd be most grateful.
 
Fine job, Dr A. Some suggestions:

Under 7, the damaged building in the second picture is Fiterman Hall (aka 30 W. Broadway). Fiterman Hall is a pretty good example of the absurdity of the Troofers' claim that the Twin Towers were brought down to save Larry Silverstein the cost of demolition due to environmental contamination. It has taken NYC and NYU almost seven years to come up with a plan to destroy this 15-story former dormitory.

Troofers often claim there were dead bodies in WTC-7. EMS Chief John Peruggia's account of his actions on 9-11 is invaluable in establishing a timeline for many events surrounding WTC-7. Peruggia reports ordering the initial move of a triage station from the lobby of WTC-7 to an area under a loading dock, and, after the collapse of the South Tower, out of WTC-7 entirely. He reports making a final sweep to be sure everybody was out of those areas. He tells of the stunning damage to WTC 7 just from the collapse of the South Tower (from which WTC-7 was shielded largely by the North Tower). This damage was confirmed in the recent BBC conspiracy files special on WTC-7.
 
njslim said:
A good source of pictures and video is from fire photographer Steve Spak who took
many shots from close up after many of the main stream reporters/photgraphers
had pulled back - which is why you have many shots of the North face of WTC 7
yet little of the damaged South.

Spak was featured in the recent BBC documentary on WTC 7 and beleive his segment
is still available.
Click to expand...
His site has some excellent photographs ... I'm definitely going to pull these out the next time anyone mentions "dustification" and how GZ was "flat".

It's a shame he's so jealous of his copyright ... you can't even link to individual photographs, 'cos he's blocked right-clicking on them.
 
Dr Adequate said:
Unfortunately, between teh internets and Microsoft Word, I can't read the pesky file. "The document name or path is not valid", says Word.

If you (or anyone else) can stick the pictures of the south face damage somewhere where I can see 'em, I'd be most grateful.
Click to expand...


Did you try the trick of placing your mouse over the link from jwheelz, right-click, then choose "Save Target As..."? That one worked for me. There are a ton of images, and the entire image is over 42MB.

If you are still having trouble, I will try and paste some stuff here, almost all of them have copyright information (most are from Steve Spak, as mentioned earlier), so I am not sure what the legalities on usage are.
 
Hokulele said:
Did you try the trick of placing your mouse over the link from jwheelz, right-click, then choose "Save Target As..."? That one worked for me. There are a ton of images, and the entire image is over 42MB.

If you are still having trouble, I will try and paste some stuff here, almost all of them have copyright information (most are from Steve Spak, as mentioned earlier), so I am not sure what the legalities on usage are.
Click to expand...
I've tried saving it and I've tried opening it directly, it doesn't want to play ball.

If you could paste some pictures here, I shall add that to my List Of Things I Owe Hokulele For.
 
Brainster said:
Troofers often claim there were dead bodies in WTC-7. EMS Chief John Peruggia's account of his actions on 9-11 is invaluable in establishing a timeline for many events surrounding WTC-7. Peruggia reports ordering the initial move of a triage station from the lobby of WTC-7 to an area under a loading dock, and, after the collapse of the South Tower, out of WTC-7 entirely.
Click to expand...
I've been trying to track this one back ... what, if anything, did Barry Jennings say about dead bodies?

Thanks.
 
Here is link to youtube video by Steve Spak - shows much of the area around GZ after
collapses, many shots of WTC 6 burning. Also several shots of WTC 7 on fire. In some
of the WTC 6 footage can see WTC 7 burning (at end of video shot of WTC 6)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfdN0L0Q19w
 
Dr Adequate said:
His site has some excellent photographs ... I'm definitely going to pull these out the next time anyone mentions "dustification" and how GZ was "flat".

It's a shame he's so jealous of his copyright ... you can't even link to individual photographs, 'cos he's blocked right-clicking on them.
Click to expand...


Viewing the image URLs works fine in Safari (Mac).

http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/sift.jpg
http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/layers.jpg
http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/void.jpg
http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/groundzero.jpg
http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/bridge3.jpg
http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/south.jpg
http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/digs2.jpg
http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/check.jpg

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
Thanks to everyone so far.

So, a few questions remaining.

Do we know anything at all about how long WTC7 took to collapse? If not, why not, why do Truthers say we do, what is wrong with their analysis? (Well, the two or three most common Truther analyses then).

How do we know what caused the structural damage to WTC7?

What is the story with the Barry Jennings/dead body thing?

Other stuff. I remember, for example, someone debunking the "couldn't find the paper-shredder" hypothesis by pointing out how far papers were scattered from the ruined buildings after 9/11.

Is there video (I've got the audio) of the "pull building 6" segment of the PBS documentary? I (seem to) remember a Truther showing me the video, but I can't find it.

---

As for the south face photographs I thought I remembered ... memory's a funny thing, isn't it? I must have reconstructed my mental image from what I read.

---

Thanks to Hokulele, but I'm not going to steal from the NYPD, they might hold it against me.
 
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