Would you pray to Satan to save your child?

[Third Eye Open]

To Christians Jews and Catholics (I think)

Imagine that you have a 13 year old son, he has cancer and it is down to the end, he has only weeks to live.

You have been praying endlessly over the past year, and are starting to think that it is Gods will that your son die. You have come to accept this, knowing that God has a plan for everyone, and that maybe your sons death will change someones life for the better, but then, something terrible happens.

Your son, on his deathbed, renounces God and becomes an atheist.

Now, you are certain that you could convince him of God given enough time, but he doesn't have much of that. And he has been reading Dawkins, which is surely enough to keep him convinced for the weeks he has left.

You can't let your son die an atheist and go to hell! But if it's Gods plan then there is nothing you can do! Or is there?

You remember how Satan is always trying to screw up Gods plan as much as possible. You remember the times in the bible that Satan offers things to God's followers, just to try and mess things up. If it is Gods plan for your son to die, shouldn't Satan want to save him?

A miraculous cure would certainly renew your sons faith, and most likely cement it into adulthood. And such a forgiving God would be sure to overlook this one time that you asked for help from an outside source, right?

And you know Satan has powers, he was an angel, remember? And he got in trouble in the first place because he wanted to be better than God. What better way for him to boost his ego than to one-up God by healing a kid that He couldn't?

Wouldn't it be worth it just on the chance that it might work? Wouldn't you risk eternal damnation to save your son from the same?

 

[ned flandas]

interesting question

 

[steve s]

Imagine that you have a 13 year old son, he has cancer and it is down to the end, he has only weeks to live.

You have been praying endlessly over the past year, and are starting to think that it is Gods will that your son die.

[Fundie mode]
Just because the doctors tell you he's going to die doesn't mean that it's god's will that he'll die. Even if you do pray to satan and he survives, it was just god's will all along that he'd survive and praying to satan had nothing to do with it.
[/Fundie mode]


Steve S.

 

[plumjam]

Third Eye Open,
maybe in your next attempt at an OP try not to present us all with an extraordinarily contrived and convoluted scenario, which would never ever apply to probably 99.5% of Jref members or lurkers. Instead copy and paste it to some firebrand Christian site whose members you wish to attack, for your own reasons.
Cheers and keep cheerful.

 

[applecorped]

I'd pray to Satan for a good pastrami sandwich.

 

[Third Eye Open]

Third Eye Open,
maybe in your next attempt at an OP try not to present us all with an extraordinarily contrived and convoluted scenario, which would never ever apply to probably 99.5% of Jref members or lurkers. Instead copy and paste it to some firebrand Christian site whose members you wish to attack, for your own reasons.
Cheers and keep cheerful.

I thought that was philosophy's bread and butter: trying to answer ridiculously contrived and convoluted scenarios that have no application to real life.

 

[gdnp]

If I were religious I would pray to God to send an angel to convince my son the error of his ways. Seems this has at least as good a chance of working as praying to Satan, since God has promised to give me anything as long as I pray in Jesus' name, whereas Satan has not made the same promise. Of course, whatever I did would just be the result of God's perfect and unchangeable plan anyway, so I don't really see how "decision" is involved.

 

[Elizabeth I]

That depends - are we assuming that he could actually do something effective to remedy the situation?

 

[Robert Oz]

Third Eye Open,
maybe in your next attempt at an OP try not to present us all with an extraordinarily contrived and convoluted scenario, which would never ever apply to probably 99.5% of Jref members or lurkers. Instead copy and paste it to some firebrand Christian site whose members you wish to attack, for your own reasons.
Cheers and keep cheerful.

It's not all that convoluted:

1. Your son loses faith due to being diagnosed with a terminal illness. With only weeks to live, he rejects his belief in God.
2. According to your beliefs, your child will spend eternity in hell for his decision.
3. God is obviously not listening to your prayers to save your child.
4. There is a possibility that Satan may grant your prayer. Would you consider praying to Satan to save your son, thereby giving your son time to turn back to God and be saved?

 

[Frozenwolf150]

Well, it makes more sense than praying to the guy who gave your son cancer in the first damn place.

 

[Robert Oz]

Well, it makes more sense than praying to the guy who gave your son cancer in the first damn place.

God gives you a son who he knows will get cancer and cause you immeasurable grief - perhaps to test your faith.

Your faith is unshaken. You have complete faith in God and because he said he would answer whatever is asked of him, you pray fervently for him to save your son - for some reason God still refuses to save your son, perhaps a continued test of faith.

Your son dies. You are reminded of the story of Job and consider that God may still be testing your faith, so you continue to believe in him and love him, but still God refuses to return your son as he did with all that Job had lost.

Finally, you begin to question the validity of scripture, which eventually leads you to realise outside the Bible there is no evidence of the God you believe in - so you finally lose your faith. As an omniscient being, God knew from the beginning that you would lose your faith at this point, making us wonder why the test was necessary in the first place.

God subjects you to eternal punishment for losing your faith. In fact, as an omniscient being, God knew that killing your son with cancer and not giving him back to you would cause you to lose your faith and yet he still created you and your son - why?

God works in mysterious ways.

 

[skepticalbeliever]

Interesting question, I wouldn’t do this. Satan is a master of lies and destruction. Satan causes all the misery I’ve come to believe. Doing so would only cause more misery. And I do believe Satan exists because his existance is the only explination for evil. With out the existance of Satan or a God I don't see how evil or good could exist.

I also wouldn’t risk being damned to hell for ever to save any loved one. I'm just too selfish.

 

[Robert Oz]

Interesting question, I wouldn’t do this. Satan is a master of lies and destruction. Satan causes all the misery I’ve come to believe. Doing so would only cause more misery. And I do believe Satan exists because his existance is the only explination for evil. With out the existance of Satan or a God I don't see how evil or good could exist.

I also wouldn’t risk being damned to hell for ever to save any loved one. I'm just too selfish.

Why did God create Satan? As an omniscient deity, he must have known what would result.

You say, "without Satan or a God I don't see how evil or good could exist", but I say "if Satan must exist, then God must have created him and allowed him to exist and, therefore, God wants lies and destruction and evil to exist".

When God decided that the world had turned evil, he killed everyone except Noah and his family. Why does he not do the same with Satan and rid the world of evil once and for all?

 

[skepticalbeliever]

Why did God create Satan? As an omniscient deity, he must have known what would result.

You say, "without Satan or a God I don't see how evil or good could exist", but I say "if Satan must exist, then God must have created him and allowed him to exist and, therefore, God wants lies and destruction and evil to exist".

When God decided that the world had turned evil, he killed everyone except Noah and his family. Why does he not do the same with Satan and rid the world of evil once and for all?

I don't think God wants lies, destruction and evil to exist. I think God wants us to have a choice between good and evil. With out there being a choice between good and evil, we are just slaves to God. Anyone could believe in God if he proved his existance. I believe in free will. I have also come to see this world as a test. If you pass you go to heavin or purgatory. If you fail you go to hell.

 

[Kopji]

I'm not quite sure why the compelling solution to this problem is to cure the child, is it so the child will have more time to convert others to atheism? So well yeah, sure Satan might be onboard with this strategy but it seems selfish on the parent's part to save their child and sacrifice other children to the dastardly atheist influence.

So they would go to hell, just a little sooner than their child. Reminds me of something my evil step-grandma had on her wall:

Why worry?

Why worry?
Either you are alive or you are dead
If you are alive there is nothing to worry about
If you are dead there are two things to worry about
Whether you go to heaven or go to hell
If you go to heaven there is nothing to worry about
if you go to hell, you will be so busy shaking hands with all your friends
there will be no time to worry about it.


An I think that parents of children with cancer deserve an apology.

 

[Robert Oz]

I don't think God wants lies, destruction and evil to exist. I think God wants us to have a choice between good and evil. With out there being a choice between good and evil, we are just slaves to God. Anyone could believe in God if he proved his existance. I believe in free will. I have also come to see this world as a test. If you pass you go to heavin or purgatory. If you fail you go to hell.

Hang on. God created Satan, thereby creating evil to try to tempt humans into committing evil acts, because he wants us to have free will, but also created hell to punish those who exercise the free will God wanted us to have and are tempted by God's creation, Satan? He also handed down laws to follow, including laws to worship him, but does not want us to be slaves, but if we do not worship him will punish us for eternity? He also likes to periodically test our faith in him by sending earthquakes, tornadoes, terminal illnesses, car accidents, etc? This is all evidence that he is omnibenevolent?

 

[Third Eye Open]

....With out there being a choice between good and evil, we are just slaves to God. .....

I thought that was the appeal of Christianity. The freedom of slavery; no requirement for thought or choice, just do what your master says and it will always be the right thing to do.

Freedom requires you to be responsible for your own actions, make your own choices, decide for your self what is right and wrong.

When someone with power over you is judging you, you can never be free. Even if that person is telling you to do the exact things you want to do, the knowledge that you will be punished for doing otherwise takes free will out of the equation.

It may be easy to be a slave, especially if your master wanted you to be happy. Imagine that you were owned. Your master can kill you at any moment, follows you around with a gun. He tells you where to live, at the point of a gun... but the house he chooses for you is beautiful, one you would have chosen anyway. He selects your hobbies for you at the point of a gun... but these are hobbies that you love, and would do of your own free will anyway. He tells you when to eat, but always just at the moment you would choose to if he wasn't there.

This only sounds appealing to people who cannot make their own choices or decide things for themselves. For anyone else it sounds terrible.

If someone has complete control over your life, and they put conditions on how you must live it, whether it is for your good or not you are a slave. There is no way around it.

 

[kedo1981]

Post like this and it’s subsequent discussion are just more proof that spending your life contemplating the comings and goings of myths and wither they are going to help you or hurt you, is foolish.

 

[Piscivore]

I've offered my soul to Satan many times, mostly in exchange for sexual favours from particular young women but often enough for power over the earth and all the foolish creatures crawling upon it.

He has yet to get back to me on any of my offers.

 

[sthomson]

You can't let your son die an atheist and go to hell! But if it's Gods plan then there is nothing you can do! Or is there?

In most moderate Protestant religions, "becoming an atheist" won't send you to Hell. The boy has, presumably, "accepted Jesus into his heart" (probably around the same age I did, which was 9-10 years old, at an Awanas meeting). Once Jesus is in your heart, that's it, he don't move out, even if you ask him to.

And you know Satan has powers, he was an angel, remember?

If I remember correctly, only God has the power over life and Death. So if we're talking philosophy here, then Satan is, essentially, powerless in this situation.

Disclaimer: I no longer believe in God or Satan or whatever. I'm just trying to demonstrate that the situation is ridiculous, theologically.