Would the Wine Clip qualify?

[alfaniner]

I think the seller of the Wine Clip has a legitimate comment in that the Wine Clip should not be considered paranormal. Granted, it's a scam, and certainly subject to negation by a double-blind test, but why would they be allowed to apply in the first place?

This brings to mind another question -- can just anyone make an offer of the $1 million on behalf of JREF? It seems that has been done a number of times. Or are they just invitations to send in an application?

 

[Ohmer]

I tend to agree in this case. Let's just look at the first two sentences of their "How it works":

When a conductive fluid (in this case wine) passes through a magnetic field, an electrical charge is created. That charge effects the molecules that are suspended in the fluid...

This sounds like Electromagnetic induction to me. It is really that unreasonable that this effect could create a detectable change in a wine's flavor?

Suppose a double blind taste test did actually show that people could tell the difference. Would that really be paranormal?

I'm not going to shell out $50 for this contraption, but I wouldn't be surpised if passing wine through a magnetic field could change the taste.

Besides, I really don't have a problem with people scamming wine snobs

 

[SpaceFluffer]

That's some great pseudoscience there, Ohmer.

Wine may be a conducter of electricity, but it's undoubtedly a very poor one, as water is. True, you can get electrocuted via water, but it ain't no metal.

When a conductive fluid (in this case wine) passes through a magnetic field, an electrical charge is created. That charge effects the molecules that are suspended in the fluid...

Hmmm...moving charges in a magnetic field experience a force, which, in a conducter will result in an electrical current because the charges are free to move through the metal. No electrical charges are 'created'.

I wouldn't imagine that there are many free charges in wine to create an appreciable electrical current unless you had a really huge magnetic field. Molecules are not suddenly going to start changing into something entirely different just because their electrons received a slight shove.

The only effect this wine magnet will have is to remove $50 from the gullible.

 

[geni]

I wouldn't imagine that there are many free charges in wine to create an appreciable electrical current unless you had a really huge magnetic field. Molecules are not suddenly going to start changing into something entirely different just because their electrons received a slight shove.

The only effect this wine magnet will have is to remove $50 from the gullible.

Check of the discation constant of ethanol.

 

[SpaceFluffer]

Do you mean the dissociation constant?

Dissociation is irrelevant, since ethanol dissolves in water because of strong hydrogen bonding interactions between the water and the alcohol. It's not like salt water, where ions become free. Because of this, water can eventually become saturated with a salt, but ethanol and water are miscible at all concentrations.

Any aqueous solution with a non-electrolyte is not going to conduct electricity. For example, salt-water conducts, but sugar-water does not. Even a relatively strong magnet is going to do flip all to it.

 

[geni]

Do you mean the dissociation constant?

Dissociation is irrelevant, since ethanol dissolves in water because of strong hydrogen bonding interactions between the water and the alcohol. It's not like salt water, where ions become free. Because of this, water can eventually become saturated with a salt, but ethanol and water are miscible at all concentrations.

Any aqueous solution with a non-electrolyte is not going to conduct electricity. For example, salt-water conducts, but sugar-water does not. Even a relatively strong magnet is going to do flip all to it.

However ethanol is still slighlty acidic I wounder what the sodium content of grapes is.

 

[Ohmer]

I should have been more clear that I do not think this thing actually works. It's no doubt a scam to separate wine snobs from their money.

The JREF prize is awarded for "...evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event." I just don't see how the wine clip qualifies. To me, a positive test result would be an intriguing chemistry problem, not a supernatural event. Certainly not worth $1 million.

Besides, as alfaniner pointed out, the makers don't even claim it's supernatural.

 

[Beleth]

It seems the shoe is on the other foot this time.

I agree, there's nothing paranormal about TWC, and that's where it should end as far as the JREF Challenge goes. It may do something to the chemical composition of the wine, it may not. Wine chemistry is obviously complex and subject to change, otherwise it would just be grape juice that sat around for a long time.

If they guy doesn't want to take the JEF challenge, so be it. It sounds like he has had numerous tests done already, and, not knowing much about wine, I have no reason to not believe him. Yet I am not about to shell out 50 simoleons for one either.

And his letter is certainly more erudite and even-tempered than the blowhardery of the comments around it.

 

[Kess]

I think the seller of the Wine Clip has a legitimate comment in that the Wine Clip should not be considered paranormal. Granted, it's a scam, and certainly subject to negation by a double-blind test, but why would they be allowed to apply in the first place?

I'm also uncomfortable with offering the $1M prize for non-paranormal things. Let's say the Wine Clip really does work (i.e. produces a noticeable change in the taste of wine). They win the $1M. Subsequent research shows that it works via some previously undiscovered but perfectly reasonable physical effect; nothing remotely supernatural nor anything like the pseudo-scientific explanation currently offered by the device's makers.
Would the result still stand, or would they be obliged to return the $1M? Do the rules say anything about this kind of situation?

 

[davefoc]

I think the only workable definition of paranormal is that it is an adjective that describes things which appear to be impossible based on known physical laws.

A phenomena described as paranormal currently could correctly be described as a natural phenomena if the phenomena was shown to exist and there was not an apparent supernatural cause.

It's the supernatural angle where my personal understanding of the situation gets a little confused. Suppose the phenomena could be shown to be caused by ghosts. Would ghosts then be considered part of the natural world and the phenomena would be a natural phenomena or would ghosts remain as part of the supernatural world and ghost related phenomena would continue to be defined as supernatural?

As to the wine topic, I think it may be a paranormal claim (using my definition). My view of the situation is that there are no known physical mechanisms whereby a magnetic field permanently affects a liquid. There are fluids that are affected by magnetic fields I believe. I believe that the viscosity of these fluids can change but take away the field and the fluid returns to its initial state.

If strong magnetic fields like those that are used in MRI's had a permanent effect on any of the fluids in the body I suspect that somebody would have noticed it by now.

 

[Skipbidder]

Re: Re: Would the Wine Clip qualify?

I'm also uncomfortable with offering the $1M prize for non-paranormal things. Let's say the Wine Clip really does work (i.e. produces a noticeable change in the taste of wine). They win the $1M. Subsequent research shows that it works via some previously undiscovered but perfectly reasonable physical effect; nothing remotely supernatural nor anything like the pseudo-scientific explanation currently offered by the device's makers.
Would the result still stand, or would they be obliged to return the $1M? Do the rules say anything about this kind of situation?

They explicitly get to keep the money. If the JREF agrees that a claim qualifies, then it qualifies. The claimant does not have to assert their belief that the claim is supernatural or paranormal. The application says that the JREF is not interested in the "whys" behind the claim. The wine-clip people get to keep the mildo and the new JREF prize probably becomes smaller for a while.

I understand your concerns. These sorts of potential claims make me a little nervous too. It's not my money, however.

 

[Kess]

Re: Re: Re: Would the Wine Clip qualify?

I understand your concerns. These sorts of potential claims make me a little nervous too. It's not my money, however.

It's a shame there aren't two prizes: one for supernatural/paranormal claims and one for technical/pseudoscientific claims. I know there might be some overlap in some cases, but I think most claims fall clearly into one camp or the other.

If ever I have $1M to spare, perhaps I'll contact Randi re. doubling the prize...

 

[Mojo]

I agree, there's nothing paranormal about TWC, and that's where it should end as far as the JREF Challenge goes. It may do something to the chemical composition of the wine, it may not.

They seem to be rather confused about what it does themselves:

from the Wine Clip website
When a conductive fluid (in this case wine) passes through a magnetic field, an electrical charge is created. That charge effects the molecules that are suspended in the fluid. These loosely bonded and larger molecules are broken down into smaller molecules.

With The Wine Clip, a wine’s impurities and tannins are broken down during the pouring process. There is absolutely no chemical change and nothing is introduced or taken away from the wine. It’s the physical change which accounts for the enhanced flavor and bouquet. The taste of many small molecules is smoother than the taste of fewer large molecules.

(italics mine)

If "larger molecules are broken down into smaller molecules," which they claim is what makes the wine taste better, then by definition there are chemical changes taking place.

The senses of taste and smell detect and identify molecules. If there were no chemical change to the wine, and nothing added or removed, there would be no change to the taste or smell of the wine.

Basically, their explanation of the way it is claimed to work seems to be self-contradictory

 

[davefoc]

If the advertised functioning of the wine clip is precluded by the laws of physics as they are currently understood then a successful demonstration of the adverstised paranormal capabilities of the wine clip should qualify for the prize IMHO.

If the wine clip phenomena was not eligible for the prize then why would a successful demonstraton of a homeopathic effect qualify for the prize? It is conceivable, that an unknown law of physics exists which could be involved in homeopathy.

Of course the chance that there is a homeopathic effect beyond fraud and self delusion is wildly unlikely. But the chance that the wine clip works is probably in the same range assuming the appropriate experts agreed with my view that there is no physical phenomena known which could explain the effect.

Does anybody know if a moderate magnetic field can affect the chemical composition of anything? How about a strong magnetic field?

 

[Kess]

If "larger molecules are broken down into smaller molecules," which they claim is what makes the wine taste better, then by definition there are chemical changes taking place.

It always amazes me how these magnetic gadgets are smart enough to tear apart the tannins, impurities, and other nasty molecules while not affecting the alcohol and "good" molecules that give the wine its flavour.

 

[Mojo]

It always amazes me how these magnetic gadgets are smart enough to tear apart the tannins, impurities, and other nasty molecules while not affecting the alcohol and "good" molecules that give the wine its flavour.

Well, thermos flasks know whether they're supposed to be keeping drinks hot or cold, don't they. This doesn't seem any more unlikely.

 

[Mojo]

And, of course, homeopathic water knows which solute it's supposed to be remembering.

 

[carudatta]

Yeah, but then it doesn't. While the thermos flask really works

 

[Mojo]

But can a thermos transmit its information down the 'phone to other thermos flasks?

 

[Jyera]

Is the touchy point also about their claim of

(A) "6 Rare Earth Magnet."

1. What are these "Rare Earth" Magnet?
2. Is it natural, synthetic or extraterestial ?
3. Is this the reason it might be "paranormal" ?

(B) "The most powerful magnets available"

4. Does it means more powerful, the better?
5. Then why not create a device with a electrically induced magnet?


Any comment?