Wikipedia Skepticism - is it useful?

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I thought this topic needed a new thread, particularly after reading the article below; which calls into question the nature of the technology itself:

Wikipedia: magic, monkeys and typewriters
By Andrew Orlowski in San Francisco
Published Monday 24th October 2005 21:42 GMT
http://www.theregister.com/

Excerpt:
Smart mobs? Wise crowds? An open access internet encyclopedia that heals itself? File it all under 'flying saucers', say Register readers.

But something is changing since we last wrote about Wikipedia a year ago. Even project founder Jimmy Wales has been obliged to admit its entries are "a horrific embarrassment". Readability, which wasn't great to begin with, has plummeted. Formerly coherent and reasonably accurate articles in the technical section have gotten worse as they've gotten longer. And most interesting of all, the public is beginning to notice.

While a year ago, misgivings in our postbag were swamped by 'pediaphiles rushing to defend the project, the ratio has flipped. While Wikipedia still has its defenders, there's a palpable relief that its shortcomings are finally being given the criticial eye. Mainstream media coverage of Wikipedia until now has rarely portrayed it as anything other than a miracle, and either ignores or rapidly glosses over quality issues.

Nicholas Carr, who drew attention to the deep problems with and religious enthusiasm for Wikipedia with his essay The Amorality of Web 2.0, has noticed the same thing in his mailbag. It's been unexpectedly positive, he says.

"Most of my correspondents have that sense of relief that it's being criticized," he told us last week. "People are naturally skeptical, but have come to fear their skepticism. Now people are being emboldened to be skeptical. It's a nagging voice they've been trying to ignore."
Peer review has its own problems with groupthink, and only works when the peers are experts. But Wikipedia fans love the fact that it's a great leveler; an expert has the same authority as a spotty teenager on the other side of the world who doesn't know the subject matter in hand.

What they don't like to talk about is that on Wikipedia, the truth is determined in the end by a physical contest: whoever has the endurance to stay awake at a keyboard and maintain his version of the edits wins.
A lot of people, including people here, seem to take Wikipedia as an authoritative source, which it most definitely is not; and it appears to be becoming less so as time goes on. The article quoted above calls into question not only general accuracy, but the fundamental usability, the idea that such an open encyclopedia can actually produce anything worthwhile.

I've personally found some useful information; but I've also encountered a lot of garbage that directly contradicts established, academic research on a number of different subjects. I've come to rely on it less and less; and use it only as a quick pointer for other people, after I've verified the validity of a particular article through more reputable sources. Ultimately, can a project that lacks extensive expert peer review produce anything resembling a remotely reliable source of information? At this point, I'd say no, it cannot, as the base premise is far too flawed; and consider getting myself a subscription to the online Britannica.
 
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I thought this topic needed a new thread, particularly after reading the article below; which calls into question the nature of the technology itself:

Wikipedia: magic, monkeys and typewriters
By Andrew Orlowski in San Francisco
Published Monday 24th October 2005 21:42 GMT
http://www.theregister.com/

Excerpt:

I dunno about anyone else but when I try to attack people I try not to make errors in the first paragraph.

The claim "Even project founder Jimmy Wales has been obliged to admit its entries are "a horrific embarrassment"." is false. He attmitted that about two articles. All in all the letter makes a load of claims but has a slight shortage of citations.

A lot of people, including people here, seem to take Wikipedia as an authoritative source,

Evidence?

which it most definitely is not; and it appears to be becoming less so as time goes on.

Evidence?

The article quoted above calls into question not only general accuracy, but the fundamental usability, the idea that such an open encyclopedia can actually produce anything worthwhile.

Nothing new there then. Wake me up when they provide a solid assment based on a reasonable amount of evidence.

I've personally found some useful information; but I've also encountered a lot of garbage that directly contradicts established, academic research on a number of different subjects.

Evidence?

I've come to rely on it less and less; and use it only as a quick pointer for other people, after I've verified the validity of a particular article through more reputable sources. Ultimately, can a project that lacks extensive expert peer review produce anything resembling a remotely reliable source of information?

It appears to.

At this point, I'd say no, it cannot, as the base premise is far too flawed;

Evidence?

and consider getting myself a subscription to the online Britannica.


Lacking content uptodate articles and with a false sense of securit about it's factual acurracy.
 
I am an occasional user of Wikipedia.

I think it is one of the most amazing ideas that have come out of the internet.

If I want a quick view of something that is reasonably unbiased I look at Wikipedia first. I have been amazed at how the NPO idea seems to be so widely embraced and understood in the Wikipedia community.

I never see it as an authoritative source. I doubt that most people would see it as such. Like everything else you read it is necessary to run it past some reasonableness filters and if you are really in a situation where you are looking for the closest to absolute truth that is available, personal research is essential. I don't see how this differentiates Wikipedia from anything else that one reads.

It is hard to differentiate the miscellaneous criticism of wikipedia that is out and about between the valid and the just sour grapes. I wouldn't even begin to give credibility to a critic of Wikipedia that didn't cite specific evidence and at least some sort of an attempt at a statistically based criticism. Something like: "In the hundred articles we examined, 32 of them were found to contain obvious factual errors designed to mislead the readers".
 
One thing that bugs me about Wikipedia is that I always forget to do anything to reinforce an entry that has proven useful...
 
Oh, get real, geni.

Type "Wikipedia" into the forum search and find out how many mentions there are, and pick a handful of the factual articles and see how many of them rely on Wikipedia only as the sole source for the assertions made. Count the number of Wikipedia mirrors that simply copy the data from Wikipedia without either fact-checking or content-editing it.

I think that the evidence that
A lot of people, including people here, seem to take Wikipedia as an authoritative source
is nearly omnipresent -- enough so that I'm going to let you do your own homework.

I've contributed to Wikis -- you know that, you've seen my work on Skepticwiki. I've also written encyclopedia articles. They're completely different kettles of fish, and part of the reason I don't trust Wikipedia is because I neither know nor trust the person that wrote it. There have been times when some moron here on the JREF forum has been mis-reading a badly-written (or simply factually inaccurate) Wiki statement, which he cites, and I've been strongly tempted just to go edit the entry on Wikipedia and fix it -- and see if the idiot changes his opinon once it's in a different forum.

Part of the problem is that the advantages you cite for Wikipedia, the content updates, really aren't. Encyclopediae aren't supposed to be up-to-the-minute accurate, exactly because they're supposed to rely upon widely-accepted and stable facts. Cutting edge research results are too unstable, since an experiment I run today may be overturned tomorrow. Encyclopediae are supposed to re[resent a long-term, factually based, consensus opinion among experts. Wikipedia represents all but four of those.

The other fundamental problem with Wikipedia is the so-called Neutral Point of View, which in practice means that the ideal article strikes a balance between fact and fiction. There is no "NPOV" about the question of the half-life of the neutron, whether the moon landings were hoaxed, or whether or not HIV causes AIDS. Obviously in areas where there is no clearly-understood correct answer -- either more research is needed, as in the case of an open scientific question, or the available evidence is ambiguous and unclear, as in most questions of current events, or questions where no fact-based evidence is available, as in questions of esthetics -- then it's reasonable to discuss "all points of view."

But in areas where factual accuracy can reasonably be an issue, Wikipedia falls down precisely because the NPOV demands that fact compromise with fiction. History News Network put it pretty well: "Wikipedia’s policy of neutrality works to the advantage of fringe groups."

Did you read the WikiEN-l discussion regarding this issue before you so blithely dismissed the complaints about the two articles (Bill Gates, and Jane Fonda)? The readers of the WikiEN-l accept the criticisms about this as valid -- in the general case and are discussing the possible solution. Stan Shebs had a very good point here:

2. We need a way to discourage well-meaning but less-able editors from crumbling good articles. On my watchlist I see a lot of editors (some logins, some anons) adding nonsequiturs or redundancies, randomly rearranging text, adding useless templates en masse, etc. They're not vandalism, but they're not improvements either, and most of them I just let slide by because they're stylistic rather than factual, and it's disheartening to argue with people about style over and over. A vicious circle though, because if I feel like an article is inexorably going downhill, I'm less and less motivated to try to halt the slide. Not quite the same as article rating, it seems more like we want articles to gradually get harder to edit as they gradually get better

That's exactly the point of a traditional encyclopedia's peer review system. I was honored to be asked to write the various encyclopedia articles. But that's because it really was an honor -- I was personally selected by the overall series editor because he considers me to be acceptably knowledgeable in my speciality and to be an acceptably good writer. He also closely read the draft article I sent him and suggested some changes, mostly stylistic. He's performing the necessary gatekeeper function to keep the quality of the articles in his encyclopedia high, rather than allowing any lunkhead with an opinion to adjust what I wrote.

The stated goal of Wikipedia is to be "better than Britannica" -- in accuracy, style, and currency. Currency, of course, Wikipedia has won -- hands down. But how can you enforce standards of accuracy and style without using a gatekeeper?
 
Oh, get real, geni.

Type "Wikipedia" into the forum search and find out how many mentions there are, and pick a handful of the factual articles and see how many of them rely on Wikipedia only as the sole source for the assertions made.

No you do it.

Count the number of Wikipedia mirrors that simply copy the data from Wikipedia without either fact-checking or content-editing it.

That would be because that isn't part of their business modle. They are simply interested in maximiseing the number of people who click on their add. Copying wikipedia is a cheap way to get yourself lots of content.

I think that the evidence that is nearly omnipresent -- enough so that I'm going to let you do your own homework.

You made the claim you back it up.

I've contributed to Wikis -- you know that, you've seen my work on Skepticwiki. I've also written encyclopedia articles. They're completely different kettles of fish, and part of the reason I don't trust Wikipedia is because I neither know nor trust the person that wrote it. There have been times when some moron here on the JREF forum has been mis-reading a badly-written (or simply factually inaccurate) Wiki statement, which he cites, and I've been strongly tempted just to go edit the entry on Wikipedia and fix it -- and see if the idiot changes his opinon once it's in a different forum.

Err evidence? You appear to be under the strange impression that I'm going to take your word for anything.

Part of the problem is that the advantages you cite for Wikipedia, the content updates, really aren't. Encyclopediae aren't supposed to be up-to-the-minute accurate, exactly because they're supposed to rely upon widely-accepted and stable facts.

Yeah you can try that but then you run into issue such as what was bill clintons full birth name and did the british use gas in Iraq (Maybe but it's a formal maybe with a citation).

Cutting edge research results are too unstable, since an experiment I run today may be overturned tomorrow. Encyclopediae are supposed to re[resent a long-term, factually based, consensus opinion among experts. Wikipedia represents all but four of those.

NPOV we represent whatever opinions are out there (not quite true but close enough).

The other fundamental problem with Wikipedia is the so-called Neutral Point of View, which in practice means that the ideal article strikes a balance between fact and fiction. There is no "NPOV" about the question of the half-life of the neutron, whether the moon landings were hoaxed, or whether or not HIV causes AIDS.

Yes there is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_moon_landing_hoax_accusations

(I admint comeing up with a NPOV title is tricky)

Obviously in areas where there is no clearly-understood correct answer -- either more research is needed, as in the case of an open scientific question, or the available evidence is ambiguous and unclear, as in most questions of current events, or questions where no fact-based evidence is available, as in questions of esthetics -- then it's reasonable to discuss "all points of view."

NPOV isn't all points of view (particulary when you throw in NOR and demard that thing must be verifiable).

But in areas where factual accuracy can reasonably be an issue, Wikipedia falls down precisely because the NPOV demands that fact compromise with fiction. History News Network put it pretty well: "Wikipedia’s policy of neutrality works to the advantage of fringe groups."

The answer to speach is more speach. If Wikipedia's policy works to the adcantage of frindge group why does stormfront hate us?

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=225536&highlight=wikipedia

Why have both free republic

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1494951/posts

and democratic underground complained of bias (ok no link their forum doesn't allow me to use it's search function)

Extreamist groups tend not to like use very much becuase they belive they have the truthtm.

Did you read the WikiEN-l discussion regarding this issue before you so blithely dismissed the complaints about the two articles (Bill Gates, and Jane Fonda)?

Of course. I'm really not too concernded though. Yeah some articles need defagmenting. Give it time. Once wikipedia's growth rate slows a bit I suspect that many of the current problems will be reduced.

The readers of the WikiEN-l accept the criticisms about this as valid -- in the general case and are discussing the possible solution. Stan Shebs had a very good point here:

The article rateing idea has been around for months (ie it should have appeared with mediawiki 1.5 but the softwear needs some work).

That's exactly the point of a traditional encyclopedia's peer review system. I was honored to be asked to write the various encyclopedia articles. But that's because it really was an honor -- I was personally selected by the overall series editor because he considers me to be acceptably knowledgeable in my speciality and to be an acceptably good writer. He also closely read the draft article I sent him and suggested some changes, mostly stylistic. He's performing the necessary gatekeeper function to keep the quality of the articles in his encyclopedia high, rather than allowing any lunkhead with an opinion to adjust what I wrote.

Any "lunkhead with an opinion" is going to find that most stuff is on someone's watchlist and they risk being reverted for POV pushing.

The stated goal of Wikipedia is to be "better than Britannica" -- in accuracy, style, and currency. Currency, of course, Wikipedia has won -- hands down. But how can you enforce standards of accuracy and style without using a gatekeeper?

Shear volume of reasources?
 
Yeah you can try that but then you run into issue such as what was bill clintons full birth name and did the british use gas in Iraq (Maybe but it's a formal maybe with a citation).

Well, yes. That's part of the point.

An encyclopedia is supposed to represent a factual consensus, not a simple collection of extremely badly documented and contradictory assertions. Controversial pseudofacts have no place in an encyclopedia article. And the author of such an article, where the consensus answer is in fact, "maybe," should write (and document) the "maybe."

Wikipedia explicitly acknowledges its limitations with respect to original research -- Wikipedia is not the place for it. In the sciences this is fairly clear -- Wikipedia isn't the journal where you present your new cutting-edge findings, but only reactive summaries of what is broadly understood to be true.

But by the same token, it's not supposed to be a spot for original historical research, either. Sorting through questions of whether or not the British used poison gas in Iraq, tediously tracing down the conflicting stories, sifting them to assess credibility and reliability is not the task of an encyclopedia, either. That's historical research, not an encyclopedia.


NPOV we represent whatever opinions are out there (not quite true but close enough).

Which is, not to put too fine a point on it, stupid. Because there are some opinions that should not be represented.

Quoting from Wiki's own guidelines.
Articles should be written without bias, representing all majority and significant minority views fairly. This is the neutral point of view policy.

The policy is easily misunderstood. It doesn't assume that writing an article from a single, unbiased, objective point of view is possible. Instead it says to fairly represent all sides of a dispute by not making articles state, imply, or insinuate that only one side is correct.

Well, I'm sorry, but there are genuine cases where only one side is correct. It is the responsibility of an encyclopedia author (and editor) to present the correct information as such. Wikipedia explicitly disavows the responsibility to respect truth over falsehood.

Obviously, this brands me as a supporter of the "scientific point of view as opposed to the more standard NPOV. But this is exactly my point about encyclopedias -- that it is the responsibility of the editor to present established facts, irrespective of the discipilne. In its haste to be "neutral," Wikipedia has abrogated its responsibility to be "true."
 
All I would say is that for the limited range of things I use Wikipedia for, it's given me exactly what I want. But, I've tended to seek uncontroversial factual information and know enough about what I'm looking at to see if it is self-consistent.
 
Well, yes. That's part of the point.

An encyclopedia is supposed to represent a factual consensus, not a simple collection of extremely badly documented and contradictory assertions. Controversial pseudofacts have no place in an encyclopedia article. And the author of such an article, where the consensus answer is in fact, "maybe," should write (and document) the "maybe."

We did (because there wasn't enough space to list argumets of the oposeing sides)

Wikipedia explicitly acknowledges its limitations with respect to original research -- Wikipedia is not the place for it. In the sciences this is fairly clear -- Wikipedia isn't the journal where you present your new cutting-edge findings, but only reactive summaries of what is broadly understood to be true.

No original reaseach is not a limitation for an encyopedia

But by the same token, it's not supposed to be a spot for original historical research, either. Sorting through questions of whether or not the British used poison gas in Iraq, tediously tracing down the conflicting stories, sifting them to assess credibility and reliability is not the task of an encyclopedia, either. That's historical research, not an encyclopedia.

Aparently we have a differen't deffintion of research. In the above case if it really became an issue we would whatever sources were availible then record there position and thier arguments.


Which is, not to put too fine a point on it, stupid. Because there are some opinions that should not be represented.

So you favor censorship?

Quoting from Wiki's own guidelines.


Well, I'm sorry, but there are genuine cases where only one side is correct. It is the responsibility of an encyclopedia author (and editor) to present the correct information as such. Wikipedia explicitly disavows the responsibility to respect truth over falsehood.


Except that wikipedia does state that the earth is round and indeed has a citation to that effect.

If one side is correct then this should be obvious when the arguments of both sides are described

Obviously, this brands me as a supporter of the "scientific point of view as opposed to the more standard NPOV. But this is exactly my point about encyclopedias -- that it is the responsibility of the editor to present established facts, irrespective of the discipilne.

Established facts are few and far between outside of mathermatics

In its haste to be "neutral," Wikipedia has abrogated its responsibility to be "true."

Nope we try and truthfully report what the various sides claim (this can be trick in some cases where one side doesn't really have a firm position).
 
So you favor censorship?

Ah, yes, the straw men are coming out.

I favor "editorship." Part of the role that an encyclopedia is supposed to play is to be an accessible source of factual information for people who cannot, will not, or do not wish to sort through all the available conflicting primary sources. A role that the NPOV prevents Wikipedia from playing, because they are obliged to achieve a compromise between fact and fiction.

If one side is correct then this should be obvious when the arguments of both sides are described.

And if it's obvious, then the editor should simply tell me what the correct answer is and save me (and herself) some time. That's not censorship. That's simply a good editor, doing her job.
 
Ah, yes, the straw men are coming out.

I favor "editorship." Part of the role that an encyclopedia is supposed to play is to be an accessible source of factual information for people who cannot, will not, or do not wish to sort through all the available conflicting primary sources. A role that the NPOV prevents Wikipedia from playing, because they are obliged to achieve a compromise between fact and fiction.

No we never have to state fiction since we source opinions to people. Jack Thompson did indeed accuses Penny Arcade of using "their Internet site and various other means to encourage and solicit criminal harassment". So we include this claim and credit it to the person who said it.

And if it's obvious, then the editor should simply tell me what the correct answer is and save me (and herself) some time. That's not censorship. That's simply a good editor, doing her job.

You assume the editor is always right. I can't think of any publication that makes the right call 100% of the time (and wikipedia articles are normaly pretty clear over who has the evidence to support their positon).
 
Can I jump in here and say that one of the reasons I setup the Skepticwiki was an awareness that Wikipedia had shortcomings.

That ISN'T to say that wikipedia isn't very useful to find out little things or obscure information, or sometimes some very fine historical articles done with a great deal of care and attention.

The problem with wikipedia is that a lot of articles are just plain shallow, or nonsense, or wrong. I remember reading that one of the early backers of the wikipedia broke away after realising that the lack of authoritative authorship was a big problem and that wikipedia had a very "anti-elitist" stance against it that was harming the reputation of wikipedia.

My impression is that wikipedia works best when it limits itself to historical facts that are beyond dispute- the NPOV works very well. But it slides badly in quality when there are controversial topics, which are matters of opinion or taste.

This is going to become a problem for skepticwiki as well - so no hiding from me on this. My perception is that elitism, properly harnessed, is good. I think that a NPOV is impossible beyond statements of historical fact, and that shading of opinion must necessarily come into play. That shading, in my view, is Skepticwiki's greatest strength: it's not egalitarian, or proletarian. The best articles are not formed by consensus and a meeting of minds, but by stating two or more points of view in discussion, with the agreement that in giving your opinion, you must not misrepresent your opponent's by vandalising their contribution.

There is a stated bias, a point of view that is rooted in philosophical naturalism, empiricism, rationalism and skepticism. That means it is not neutral on the subjects of religious beliefs, the paranormal, science, logic, theology, philosophy, history, ethics or even politics.

The skepticwiki very definitely has a purpose: to inform readers of rational explanations and logic and to critically examine the irrational, the pseudoscientific, the illogical and the supernatural from that stated POV.

The motto could be "How we know what IS and ISN'T so"

It isn't the neutralwiki, or the allbeliefsareequallyvalidwiki, or the blandwiki, and it isn't the wikipedia.

I think the wikipedia should narrow its focus - but I suspect that it won't do so, and so one wikipedia will spawn a thousand wikis which each try to "correct" the failings of the original.
 
Nope, I merely assume the editor is right often enough to justify her position. In a good encyclopedia, she is.

Read EB 1911. It reads well and is mostly correct for the period but the POV is anoying.
 
The problem with wikipedia is that a lot of articles are just plain shallow, or nonsense, or wrong. I remember reading that one of the early backers of the wikipedia broke away after realising that the lack of authoritative authorship was a big problem and that wikipedia had a very "anti-elitist" stance against it that was harming the reputation of wikipedia.

Well that, a personal falling out with some of the other wikipedia leading lights and that he wasn't going to get paid any more.

My impression is that wikipedia works best when it limits itself to historical facts that are beyond dispute- the NPOV works very well. But it slides badly in quality when there are controversial topics, which are matters of opinion or taste.

Nothing is beyond disspute
 
Well that, a personal falling out with some of the other wikipedia leading lights and that he wasn't going to get paid any more.

Hoo boy, that's a fallacy and you know it, geni.

Nothing is beyond disspute

Quite right. But the problem with wikipedia stems from its greatest asset - it's accessible for anybody in the world to change, instantly, and without any expert review before it is changed. That means that determination to vandalize by a thousand subtle changes until the original author tires of reverting the edits, is a big problem. There's no way to tell if the person doing the edit knows what he or she is talking about - no way to determine the provenance of what is said.

I looked at Project Galatea and thought "no way - you're shovelling ◊◊◊◊ against a tsunami of idiots". The problem is going to come to skepticwiki - it's going to be a magnet for woo-woos not simply putting their POV but actively deleting or vandalizing articles which debunk those beliefs.

I wonder if there's a plug-in which allows edits to be reviewed before allowing them to be implemented?
 
Hoo boy, that's a fallacy and you know it, geni.

Yes and no. I'm pretty sure it was a combinationd of

Quite right. But the problem with wikipedia stems from its greatest asset - it's accessible for anybody in the world to change, instantly, and without any expert review before it is changed. That means that determination to vandalize by a thousand subtle changes until the original author tires of reverting the edits, is a big problem.

Not as much as you would think. People comeing in from outside to influence an article normaly give up after a few weeks (ok there was one edit war I ended up in that went on for months but that is unusal)

There's no way to tell if the person doing the edit knows what he or she is talking about - no way to determine the provenance of what is said.

Except the people who do know the provenance of what is said will have a tendancy to revert the edit.

I looked at Project Galatea and thought "no way - you're shovelling ◊◊◊◊ against a tsunami of idiots". The problem is going to come to skepticwiki - it's going to be a magnet for woo-woos not simply putting their POV but actively deleting or vandalizing articles which debunk those beliefs.

That is easy to deal with. Straight forward vandalism by random people is not a problem

I wonder if there's a plug-in which allows edits to be reviewed before allowing them to be implemented?

No.
 
Not as much as you would think. People comeing in from outside to influence an article normaly give up after a few weeks (ok there was one edit war I ended up in that went on for months but that is unusal)
They're becoming increasingly common; particularly around controversial politicals. There are groups that organize to vandalize pages related to particular issues and entities (Israel/Palestine for example).
Except the people who do know the provenance of what is said will have a tendancy to revert the edit.
Except that there's always a lag, and that's assuming the edit is caught; and that the maintainer simply doesn't get tired of having to constantly deal with vandals.
That is easy to deal with. Straight forward vandalism by random people is not a problem
Straight-forward vandalism isn't, no. Politically and philosophically motivated vandalism is becoming increasingly problematic all over the Web.
 
They're becoming increasingly common; particularly around controversial politicals. There are groups that organize to vandalize pages related to particular issues and entities (Israel/Palestine for example).

We know. But we hold all the cards (reverts, bannings, locking down pages).

Except that there's always a lag, and that's assuming the edit is caught; and that the maintainer simply doesn't get tired of having to constantly deal with vandals.

Most stuff is cought fast and there are ways for the maintainer to call for help.

Straight-forward vandalism isn't, no. Politically and philosophically motivated vandalism is becoming increasingly problematic all over the Web.

We seem to be dealing with it for the most part. It can be milding amusing to watch DU and FR fight it out on their articles.
 

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