Wiccan instructuions are Defective

[Radrook]

The "do as you may" part is an oxymoron.
Do no harm but do as you may is a nonsensical statement since doing as one may inevitably leads to causing harm. It is an incentive to pandemonium. An encouragement for certain unscrupulous nominal "wiccans" to become a law unto themselves.

 

[LostAngeles]

It's not very different from "Love thy neighbor as thyself" or more specifically, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It's asserting that you have the right and the will to make your own choices, but you should constrain yourself by the morality of not causing harm by either action or inaction and should strive to do good.

This is a far cry from say, Crowley's list of "man's rights" which ends with "Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights" and his "Do what thou wilt shalt be the whole of the law..." which do in essence, encourage one to assert all of their desires without regard for others, apparently.

 

[Radrook]

It's not very different from "Love thy neighbor as thyself" or more specifically, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It's asserting that you have the right and the will to make your own choices, but you should constrain yourself by the morality of not causing harm by either action or inaction and should strive to do good.

This is a far cry from say, Crowley's list of "man's rights" which ends with "Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights" and his "Do what thou wilt shalt be the whole of the law..." which do in essence, encourage one to assert all of their desires without regard for others, apparently.

But the love thy neighbor part doesn't stop there.
The Bible goes into specifics as to what that love involves.
The Wiccan Crede does not except for the statement that one should not persecute others based on differences of religion. Which of course can be nullified, as Zay is doing, by referring to the "do as you may part" which seems to give a Wiccan veto powers over the latter.

 

[Dancing David]

Before you pick on the wiccan rede I have to ask, where does god give people permission to violate the sixth comandment.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. For pure will anasssauaged of purpose and delivered from the lust of result is in every way perfect.
Love is the law, love under will. A. Crowley

Crowley had some great ideas, he felt that if all people foloowed thier true will then there would be less conflict, or at least the conflicts would resolve more quickly.

Radrook: I think that most of the stuff that passes as wiccanism is crap, it is just nice sounding words meant to inspire people.

But how we live our lives is how we will be judged, I feel that I will follow my path and that I will be kind most of the times, be nice to people and try to help my neigbor. I think I stand a better chance of being in heaven than the average close minded bigot who confesses chrsits but refuses to walk the path.

Is it the confession or the living that is important?

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

The "do as you may" part is an oxymoron.
Do no harm but do as you may is a nonsensical statement since doing as one may inevitably leads to causing harm. It is an incentive to pandemonium. An encouragement for certain unscrupulous nominal "wiccans" to become a law unto themselves.

I don't see it so much as an oxymoron as an unattainable ideal. Nearly every possible action could be construed to harm something, in some way. The purpose of such ideals is to strive for them, even in knowledge that you will not perfectly succeed. Sorta like when Christians are admonished to be like Christ, even though all men sin.

Of course, I'm neither Wiccan nor Christian, but that's what it looks like from the outside.

 

[Ratman_tf]

The "do as you may" part is an oxymoron.
Do no harm but do as you may is a nonsensical statement since doing as one may inevitably leads to causing harm. It is an incentive to pandemonium. An encouragement for certain unscrupulous nominal "wiccans" to become a law unto themselves.

Hum. Are you saying that the sentiment is wrong or how it's worded? I'm rather sure that every ethical code has been misinterpreted and misused at one time or another.

 

[dmarker]

The "do as you may" part is an oxymoron.
Do no harm but do as you may is a nonsensical statement since doing as one may inevitably leads to causing harm. It is an incentive to pandemonium. An encouragement for certain unscrupulous nominal "wiccans" to become a law unto themselves.

An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Notice that that first part of the statement is about the limits on free action. You must first be sure that your actions will harm none before you do anything.

Compare this to

Deuteronomy:

2:30
But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

2:31
And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land.

2:32
Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz.

2:33
And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.

2:34
And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:


As you can clearly see, God has decided to give Sihon's land to the Israelites. Does he appear to Sihon and serve an eviction notice? Nope, he thwarts Sihon's free will as he did to the Pharoh in Exodus and forces Sihon to attack. Of course since God wanted the Israelites to have the land, God probably gave the Israelites Sihon's battle plans as well.

Once God delivers Sihon, the Israelites destroy him, his family, and his citizens, even the little children.

What have we learned from these verses?

1. That man has no free will.
2. That the Israelites were not the innocents suffering from unwarranted attacks since God obviously drew Sihon out
3. Killing small children is okay, as long as you do it in God's name.

And you say that Wiccan instructions are defective, Rad.

 

[Benguin]

Re: Re: Wiccan instructuions are Defective

And you say that Wiccan instructions are defective, Rad.

Of course they are defective, there is nothing stopping you boil a baby goat in its mother's milk. And we all know they do that all the time. Bloody heathens.

 

[dmarker]

Re: Re: Re: Wiccan instructuions are Defective

Of course they are defective, there is nothing stopping you boil a baby goat in its mother's milk. And we all know they do that all the time. Bloody heathens.

And wearing a garment woven from both linen and wool.

The Wiccans might wear mixed fibers! I wonder if that applies to poly/cotton too.

 

[Oleron]

The "do as you may" part is an oxymoron.
Do no harm but do as you may is a nonsensical statement since doing as one may inevitably leads to causing harm. It is an incentive to pandemonium. An encouragement for certain unscrupulous nominal "wiccans" to become a law unto themselves.

You are doing to wiccans what you accuse us of doing to xians. I am not a wiccan or xian but I know quite a few wiccans and xians.

You are playing word games to construe a meaning from the crede that was never intended. I could do the same by quoting bible verses that seem to endorse murder or whatever but that would be to read the bible without any reference to context or intended meaning.

You know full well that wiccans read thier crede to mean what dmarker says but you choose to stretch the meaning and speculate on what an unscrupulous individual might be able to do with it.
Again any 'wiccan' who chooses your meaning would be anathema to the overwhelming majority of wiccans today. They would be as representative of wiccans as a serial killer is representative of xians just because he says 'god made him do it'.

Poor show Rad.

 

[Radrook]

Re: Re: Wiccan instructuions are Defective

Hum. Are you saying that the sentiment is wrong or how it's worded? I'm rather sure that every ethical code has been misinterpreted and misused at one time or another.

It gives too much leeway.
It provides a loophole via which anyone can veto what comes next or interprete it at his convenience or leisure.

 

[Radrook]

Re: Re: Wiccan instructuions are Defective

You are doing to wiccans what you accuse us of doing to xians. I am not a wiccan or xian but I know quite a few wiccans and xians.

You are playing word games to construe a meaning from the crede that was never intended. I could do the same by quoting bible verses that seem to endorse murder or whatever but that would be to read the bible without any reference to context or intended meaning.

You know full well that wiccans read thier crede to mean what dmarker says but you choose to stretch the meaning and speculate on what an unscrupulous individual might be able to do with it.
Again any 'wiccan' who chooses your meaning would be anathema to the overwhelming majority of wiccans today. They would be as representative of wiccans as a serial killer is representative of xians just because he says 'god made him do it'.

Poor show Rad.

SIGH!

Show me where I said that what I described is representative of all Wiccans.

QUESTION: What do you gain from twisting the meaning of what I say? Just curious.

 

[Radrook]

Re: Re: Re: Wiccan instructuions are Defective

Of course they are defective, there is nothing stopping you boil a baby goat in its mother's milk. And we all know they do that all the time. Bloody heathens.

This is where the diiscussion begins to become manure.
I considered you among the most rational on this board.

 

[Oleron]

Sigh yourself.

You said the crede was nonsense and COULD be read as justification for almost anything.

I have not twisted anything, I'm merely making the point that xians in glass houses shouldn't be lobbing bricks.

If you want to deliberately misunderstand another philosophy, such as Wicca, then I can't stop you. All I can do is point out that, IMO, you are in danger of being purposely obtuse.

 

[Iacchus]

Of course they are defective, there is nothing stopping you boil a baby goat in its mother's milk. And we all know they do that all the time. Bloody heathens.

How about some of those good ol' Easter Hams? That used to be considered an abomination too didn't it?

 

[Radrook]

Sigh yourself.

You said the crede was nonsense and COULD be read as justification for almost anything.

I have not twisted anything, I'm merely making the point that xians in glass houses shouldn't be lobbing bricks.

If you want to deliberately misunderstand another philosophy, such as Wicca, then I can't stop you. All I can do is point out that, IMO, you are in danger of being purposely obtuse.

Principles of Wiccan Belief ~ Spring Witch meet of 1974 ~
As American Witches, we are not threatened by debates on the history of the Craft, the origins of various terms, the legitimacy of various aspects of different traditions.
_________________________________________________

Obviously you do not represent the official attitude since the official attitude is not to take offense at disagreements or discussions of your beliefs.

I am not being obtuse--I am being realistic.
The wording alllows certain individuals to go haywire.
That you deny it simply means that you refuse to see it.
Nothing more.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Rad really hates Wiccans, doesn't he? When was the last time Wiccans raised armies to destroy nonbelievers or convert people at the end of a sword?

 

[dmarker]

Re: Re: Re: Wiccan instructuions are Defective

SIGH!

Show me where I said that what I described is representative of all Wiccans.

QUESTION: What do you gain from twisting the meaning of what I say? Just curious.

I quote the title, spelling corrected: "Wiccan instructions are defective"

You're attacking the whole belief system.

 

[Iacchus]

Rad really hates Wiccans, doesn't he? When was the last time Wiccans raised armies to destroy nonbelievers or convert people at the end of a sword?

And when was the last in antiquity that religion did not have anything to do anything else? Given enough time perhaps, maybe we can account all sorts of things attributable to Atheism?

 

[Benguin]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Wiccan instructuions are Defective

This is where the diiscussion begins to become manure.
I considered you among the most rational on this board.

My apologies, couldn't resist it.