Why was Mary a virgin?

[FarSideOfTheMoon]

This will probably illustrate my real lack of biblical historical knowledge, but it is something that I've been trying to think through.

Ok, if we are to believe that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born, why should that be a legitimate starting point to the whole story.

There are two aspects:

1) Mary was engaged to Joseph - but was it common practice back then (as it is now with many conservative types, but many many less than say 20 or 30 years ago) not to have sex before marriage? Did this type of behavior evolve from the old testament times?

2) If sex before marriage was not acceptable or normal, was it ok to be 'living together'? I assume that at least near the time she was to give birth, this would have been the case as they travelled together.

As I say, my historical knowledge of the social rules of the time is probably a bit lacking.

 

[Beady]

As I say, my historical knowledge of the social rules of the time is probably a bit lacking.

Fundamentalist Muslims, Jews and Christians still follow those rules (the real Fundies do, anyway). Illustration:

Some time ago, a cow-orker was processing a Muslim woman whose husband, already here as a Permanent Resident, was petitioning to have her made a Permanent Resident, as well. The documentation for the marriage was a little lacking, which was no reflection on the couple, so my cow-orker sent out a boilerplate request to the husband for further corroboration. The documents came in, all right, but they were accompanied by a cover letter literally damning my cow-orker to hell for suggesting that the wife was less than pure. There was enough in there that the entire package was sent to ICE for a ruling on whether it constituted a threat to a Federal officer.

ETA: I've also seen affidavits that describe how the sheets from the marriage bed are routinely displayed to the family the next morning, to verify the bride's chastity before the ceremony.

 

[chulbert]

Why was Dorothy from Kansas?

 

[Z]

Mary wasn't a virgin, in the modern sense of the term.

IIRC, the actual phrase used was something to the effect of Mary being an independent woman, or perhaps a single woman. The modern sexual idea of virginity isn't what was intended, it seems.

 

[Beady]

Mary wasn't a virgin, in the modern sense of the term.

To borrow a phrase: "Evidence?"

IIRC, the actual phrase used was something to the effect of Mary being an independent woman, or perhaps a single woman.

Book, chapter and verse? Oh, and which translation are you using?

The modern sexual idea of virginity isn't what was intended, it seems.

Precisely. Back then, a virgin was a woman who hadn't had sex.

 

[Beerina]

This will probably illustrate my real lack of biblical historical knowledge, but it is something that I've been trying to think through.

Ok, if we are to believe that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born, why should that be a legitimate starting point to the whole story.

There are two aspects:

1) Mary was engaged to Joseph - but was it common practice back then (as it is now with many conservative types, but many many less than say 20 or 30 years ago) not to have sex before marriage? Did this type of behavior evolve from the old testament times?

2) If sex before marriage was not acceptable or normal, was it ok to be 'living together'? I assume that at least near the time she was to give birth, this would have been the case as they travelled together.

As I say, my historical knowledge of the social rules of the time is probably a bit lacking.

I never quite understood it myself. Their social relationship was like engagement, but was more serious than that, but not quite marriage. Evidently it meant they could be living together, or why would they be travelling together?

 

[drkitten]

Book, chapter and verse? Oh, and which translation are you using?

Isaiah 7:14, in the original Hebrew.

The word used there is "almah" (please apologize for my using Latin letters instead of Hebrew), which more generally means "young woman." Perhaps the best direct translation into modern English is "maiden," which does double duty as referrring to a "young woman" (OED, sense 1) and "virgin" (OED, sense 2).

The Septuagint (the traditional Greek translation of the Old Testament) uses the word "parthenos," which does strictly mean "virgin," to translate "almah." This is also the word used in the original Greek versions of the Gospel of Matthew.

Back then, a virgin was a woman who hadn't had sex.

Except that Isaiah doesn't say she was a "virgin," it says she was a "maiden."

 

[Z]

Only the latter two Gospels refer to Mary as a 'virgin' in the latter sense of a woman who had not been with a man. Those closest to the event, do not. Paul's writings make no indication of Mary as a virgin; and as it is, the first two chapters of Luke may well be late additions to the scripture.

Not sure where I got that they used a term that had different meanings, though...

Pretty strong evidence, though, that Mary was not a virgin until someone decided to expand the story...

 

[Bikewer]

This was a matter of great contention not only amongst the earliest Jesus cults but even later on. Didn't they fight a war with a group of heretics over this?

Also, "virgin birth" was a sort of bona fides for important persons at the time.

The same had been indicated for a number of historical figures, ranging from Julius Ceasar to the Budda in various legends. One legend has Siddhartha emerging from the side of his mother, more-or-less fully formed.

 

[Z]

Isaiah 7:14, in the original Hebrew.

The word used there is "almah" (please apologize for my using Latin letters instead of Hebrew), which more generally means "young woman." Perhaps the best direct translation into modern English is "maiden," which does double duty as referrring to a "young woman" (OED, sense 1) and "virgin" (OED, sense 2).

The Septuagint (the traditional Greek translation of the Old Testament) uses the word "parthenos," which does strictly mean "virgin," to translate "almah." This is also the word used in the original Greek versions of the Gospel of Matthew.



Except that Isaiah doesn't say she was a "virgin," it says she was a "maiden."

Thanks DK - my notes are missing

 

[Beady]

Except that Isaiah doesn't say she was a "virgin," it says she was a "maiden."

What's a "maidenhead"?

Judges 21:12
And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead 400 young virgins, who had known no man by lying with him; and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.

So, it depends on context.

 

[Beady]

Pretty strong evidence, though, that Mary was not a virgin until someone decided to expand the story...

The evidence is only as strong as your bias, seems to me.

 

[drkitten]

So, it depends on context.

Actually, I submit that your quotation actually strengthens my point.

If the word "almah" actually meant "virgin," then it would have been unnecessary to add "who had known no man by lying with him" in that passage.

We wouldn't write in modern English that so-and-so is a virgin who hasn't had sex. That's redundant. But we might write that so-and-so is a young woman who hasn't had sex.

 

[drkitten]

What's a "maidenhead"?

A rock just outside Boston, if I remember right.

Less sarcastically, it's derived from sense 2 of the OED, obviously.

Which doesn't mean that sense 1 doesn't exist or even that sense 1 isn't primary.

 

[Z]

The evidence is only as strong as your bias, seems to me.

The irony of this statement amuses me.

No, Beady - the evidence is quite clear, actually. The earliest writings indicated Mary to be a maiden, or, by Hebrew culture of the time, a strong and unmarried woman (which was what almah referred to in Hebrew culture). Later writings attempted to change the birth of Jesus into something miraculous; so suddenly this young maiden became a virgin, too.

As to your 'maidenhead' comment: the term is from about the 13th century, and refers to virginity, yes - 'maiden' from 'maid' and 'head' from 'hood'. However, prior to the 13th century, the term didn't exist.

Given the strong hold of the pervasive modern attitudes about sex and virginity, it's no surprise that, by the 13th century, the words for unmarried woman would become synonymous with virgin. By the 13th century, sex (for women) was strictly for married women and whores.

You'll have to try a different tack, my friend.

 

[Tricky]

Maybe it's because she... um... had a great personality.

 

[drkitten]

So, it depends on context.

Oh, further to your Judges quote. The word in Judges translated as "virgin" is not actually "almah." The word used there is "bethulah."

"Almah" is used only a half-dozen times in the Old Testament, and in only one use (Gen. 24:43) is there even a suggestion of implied virginity. (Rebeccah, the future wife of Isaac, is described as an "almah." I suggest in context that that means "unmarried" rather than virginal.)

In Exodus 2:8, the elder sister of a baby boy is an "almah"'; nothing sexual about that context.

In 1 Chronicles 15:20, a psalm is to be played by a girls' choir.

In Psalms 68:25, a group of alamot play instruments. Again, a girls' choir.

Song of Songs 1:3: a man is described by saying that all the alamot adore him. Presumably it isn't just the virgins that adore him, if you know what I mean.

et cetera, et cetera.

 

[Z]

Maybe it's because she... um... had a great personality.

Oh please... like that mattered! She was rich! Rich, I tell you! Rich!!!

OK, well, she was probably rather well-off, and socially in the Jewish upper crust.

Personally, I think she was a heck of a manipulator. Probably deliberately ran to Bethlehem just to fulfill prophecy!

LOL!

 

[Blutarsky]

Both Almah and Bethulah have instances where they are defined as a term directly referring to "virgins" and "non-virgins." Neither term has a monopoly on the idea of someone who had not had sex.

Jewish scholars who translated the scriptures into the Greek translated Almah into "Parthenos," which does unequivocally mean virgin.

Luther actually argued that the terms were interchangable.

 

[Tricky]

Actually, another point (and it has been raised here before) is that in order to fulfill the prophesies, Jesus had to be descended from the line of King David. Mary wasn't, but Joseph was. This little switcheroo allows believers to have it both ways.