Why not a national ID card?

Bob001

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This writer -- for a proudly left-wing publication -- makes a strong case for a secure national ID card, and anybody who has a passport or a passport card already has one. I would see a national ID as a tool that would make it harder for anyone else to steal my identity or to defraud me by claiming to be someone else. But, as the writer observes, the concept is vigorously opposed by liberals, conservations conservatives and libertarians. So what's the downside to a national ID card?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/national-id-card-voter-fraud-solution
 
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This writer -- for a proudly left-wing publication -- makes a strong case for a secure national ID card, and anybody who has a passport or a passport card already has a one.

Sure, but you can choose to have a passport or not and you don't have to carry the passport with you all the time at home (or indeed abroad). One of the fears as it is pictured by those against ID cards is the need to carry one all the time which then allows you to be continually challenged for "your papers".

Given how badly "SUS" was misapplied in the UK to target members of racial minorities, there is a reasonable fear that the same may apply again.

I would see a national ID as a tool that would make it harder for anyone else to steal my identity or to defraud me by claiming to be someone else.

In the UK, it proved to be depressingly easy for ID cards to be cloned or counterfeited when they were trialled. If the ID card id viewed as an indisputable piece of ID, it may actually become easier to execute ID fraud.

But, as the writer observes, the concept is vigorously opposed by liberals, conservations and libertarians. So what's the downside to a national ID card?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/national-id-card-voter-fraud-solution

Arguments against I have heard include:

  • The need to carry an ID card is open to abuse. It's a policing issue but ID cards can be used as a means to target certain groups for repeated carding
  • ID cards have been shown to be comparatively easy to fake or clone
  • An ID card scheme would cost billions to implement. If hte benefits aren't clear then people won't want to spend this money
  • The ID card will be badly implemented (because the majority of large projects, public or private sector are badly implemented)
  • In the UK there is an emotional opposition going back to WWII. Having to carry "your papers" with you all the time is only somehting you have to do at times of war or when you are under the yoke of a totalitarian regime

My personal objections for ID cards in the UK are:

  • The implementation will be excrucuating
  • The costs will be huge, the benefits negligible
  • ID cards will not be secure
 
One of the fears as it is pictured by those against ID cards is the need to carry one all the time which then allows you to be continually challenged for "your papers".

Actually, this is the key point - it is fundamentally flawed. Anytime you are approached by a policeman with the challenge "papers?", you just have to declare "scissors" and you win.
 
The "papers" in "show me your papers" form the cold war era or apartheid South Africa wasn't identification, but the permission papers to travel outside your home town.
 
Actually, this is the key point - it is fundamentally flawed. Anytime you are approached by a policeman with the challenge "papers?", you just have to declare "scissors" and you win.

Anyone challenging you for your ID is unlikely to have such a well developed sense of humour. :D
 
Why do we need one? Anyone capable of faking current acceptable ID would also be able to fake a national one. We already have national identification numbers in the form of Social Security Numbers, which are frequently faked and used for identity theft. What benefit would a national ID card provide?
 
The "papers" in "show me your papers" form the cold war era or apartheid South Africa wasn't identification, but the permission papers to travel outside your home town.

In the UK during the second world war, it was obligatory to carry your ID papers and to show them on demand. This was very unpopular.

If it is obligatory to carry ID, one aspect of a national ID scheme that has to be in place then the Police will be entitled to ensure that people are carrying ID. If experience of the SUS laws is anything to go by then it's unlikely that middle-aged, middle-class white men will be the ones continually challenged for ID, instead it will be black and subcontinental-Asian youths, at least in the UK.
 
This writer -- for a proudly left-wing publication -- makes a strong case for a secure national ID card, and anybody who has a passport or a passport card already has a one. I would see a national ID as a tool that would make it harder for anyone else to steal my identity or to defraud me by claiming to be someone else. But, as the writer observes, the concept is vigorously opposed by liberals, conservations and libertarians. So what's the downside to a national ID card?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/national-id-card-voter-fraud-solution


The only benefit of a national ID scheme is the creation of another federal bureaucracy.
 
.... We already have national identification numbers in the form of Social Security Numbers, which are frequently faked and used for identity theft. What benefit would a national ID card provide?

Social Security was never intended to be used as a national ID card, and for that reason never incorporated the security protections that an ID card would need. Just one example: SS numbers have only nine digits. The first three are codes for the states where they are issued. In a nation of three hundred million people, the odds are good that any random 9-digit number could be an SS number, and if you use a correct state code and six random digits it is almost certainly an SS number. By contrast, credit cards have 16-digit serial numbers, a security code, an expiration date, a readable magnetic strip and sometimes a chip. And for many years SS cards were issued pretty much on request, without any proof of identity. A national ID card might carry its own problems, but it would eliminate SS card fraud.
 
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This writer -- for a proudly left-wing publication -- makes a strong case for a secure national ID card, and anybody who has a passport or a passport card already has a one. I would see a national ID as a tool that would make it harder for anyone else to steal my identity or to defraud me by claiming to be someone else. But, as the writer observes, the concept is vigorously opposed by liberals, conservations and libertarians. So what's the downside to a national ID card?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/national-id-card-voter-fraud-solution

The card itself does not bother me that much, the use and application of that card, when it can be demanded and used as a means to sort, exclude or track individuals does bother me.

If it is something that maintains and secures an individual's daily privacy I've no real problem with them, if it is something that is demanded and required everytime I try to perform any transaction or anytime anyone is curious about who I am and what other things I have done lately, then I am completely opposed to it, and see no benefit in such a system. Might as well barcode tatoo everyone at birth in a visible and accessible location.
 
This writer -- for a proudly left-wing publication -- makes a strong case for a secure national ID card, and anybody who has a passport or a passport card already has a one. I would see a national ID as a tool that would make it harder for anyone else to steal my identity or to defraud me by claiming to be someone else. But, as the writer observes, the concept is vigorously opposed by liberals, conservations and libertarians. So what's the downside to a national ID card?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/national-id-card-voter-fraud-solution
The downside is that it would make it easier for people to steal your identity and defraud you.

Those claiming it wouldn't are the same ones claiming that the Patriot Act is about patriotism, and DOMA is about defending marriage.
 
I'm pro national ID. The usual reasons apply, but also another reason, no one has mentioned -- standardization. This also addresses fraud.

As mentioned current ID can be and are faked. They are also built from other forms of ID that can be faked. But faking comes with a risk. It's a way to identify criminals if they are caught doing it because faking, unlike not having any ID at all, is an overt crime.

Standardization can make it cheaper and more secure. I think the demand to make it perfectly secure is using the perfect as the enemy of the good. I also think that a standard national ID gives us a target to meet the defects, in the same way we've altered our currency to make it more difficult to counterfeit.

Expense is an issue. However, I think that, like social security numbers, a national ID would quickly be adopted for other purposes -- for example, your ID can be linked to information about driving or voting. These add value and eliminate other, overlapping forms of identification. One ID, a variable data base behind it. That's the kind of benefit that would be needed to sell it.

Linking to a data base also helps fight fraud. I expect it introduces some errors as well. Still, there is an advantage to users of a high-profile, meaningful system -- we are more likely to keep their feet to the fire.

One of the best objections revolves around misuse. This too is likely to mean legislative fights. After all, something as innocuous as the census has opponents that decry the invasion of privacy. So the national ID starts out as pseudo-voluntary and becomes so useful that it is adopted by choice until it finally is adopted by law.
 
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I think standardization is a good argument. It would be a lot easier if you could have your drivers license/passport etc. in one, and an id with a chip is nearly impossible to forge.
 
The downside is that it would make it easier for people to steal your identity and defraud you.

Those claiming it wouldn't are the same ones claiming that the Patriot Act is about patriotism, and DOMA is about defending marriage.
Could you back up that assertion, please? Perhaps at least to demonstrate that it would be significantly different from the current situation where, in theory, your identity could be "stolen" in 50 separate states?
 
I'm pro national ID. The usual reasons apply, but also another reason, no one has mentioned -- standardization. This also addresses fraud.

As mentioned current ID can be and are faked. They are also built from other forms of ID that can be faked. But faking comes with a risk. It's a way to identify criminals if they are caught doing it because faking, unlike not having any ID at all, is an overt crime.

Standardization can make it cheaper and more secure. I think the demand to make it perfectly secure is using the perfect as the enemy of the good. I also think that a standard national ID gives us a target to meet the defects, in the same way we've altered our currency to make it more difficult to counterfeit.

Expense is an issue. However, I think that, like social security numbers, a national ID would quickly be adopted for other purposes -- for example, your ID can be linked to information about driving or voting. These add value and eliminate other, overlapping forms of identification. One ID, a variable data base behind it. That's the kind of benefit that would be needed to sell it.

Linking to a data base also helps fight fraud. I expect it introduces some errors as well. Still, there is an advantage to users of a high-profile, meaningful system -- we are more likely to keep their feet to the fire.

One of the best objections revolves around misuse. This too is likely to mean legislative fights. After all, something as innocuous as the census has opponents that decry the invasion of privacy. So the national ID starts out as pseudo-voluntary and becomes so useful that it is adopted by choice until it finally is adopted by law.

What you apparently consider "benefits," I consider horrendous intrusions and violations of privacy. I don't want to make it easier for anyone who desires to do so, to collect data about me. I have no problem with a legal authority investigating a crime, discovering who I am, if I am the focus of that investigation, so long as once I am cleared of wrong-doing my privacy is securely maintained, beyond that there is no need for anyone to know anything beyond what I choose to reveal. I would find a "one-card-for-all-uses" and applications an unacceptable and intolerable state of affairs. It is not my job or goal in life to make other's snooping more convenient or easy.
 
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Actually, this is the key point - it is fundamentally flawed. Anytime you are approached by a policeman with the challenge "papers?", you just have to declare "scissors" and you win.

And then the policeman declares "Taser!", and he wins.
 

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