Why Linux will never replace Windows (for now)

[Beanbag]

Just got through booting up an inexpensive ThizLinux system I purchased off-the-shelf, and folks, I gotta say it lived up (or down) to every expectation and fear I had for Linux.

It sucks royally from a new user's out-of-box experience. No understandable help files. No instructions whatsoever (either printed or online) on how to handle setting up the ethernet connections to the internet. A trip to the website on a Windows XP machine just gives prices and purchase options for buying a boxed distribution. No tutorials. No instructions. Nothing to help a reasonably computer-literate person figure out how to get anything up and running.

The monitor I'm using will support a higher resolution than what I'm getting. Some critical configuration windows are larger than what the OS will let the monitor show, and I can't scroll them up past the title bar. I can't say for sure what's at the lower half of the window I can't see, and NOWHERE can I find any damned method for raising the display resolution. What help files I can find are for KDE, which is nice, but damned if they help with a non-functional internet connection.

Unix/Linux always had "keep a tech available at all times" reputation, and now I see why. I want something I can use, not take out another degree in to try to get it to do something useful. Maybe it's this distribution, but from what I've seen looking over the others, like Red Hat, FreeBSD, and the others, this appears to be the norm. It looks and handles like Windows 3.0. This is the OS that everyone should migrate to? You gotta be kidding.

At least with Windows XP, Microsoft has taken the geek tweaking and bit-fiddling out of the setup. And until Linux gets to that point, it will always be the OS of choice for the dweebs, but no further. Forget the popular market -- it's too user hostile out of the box.

Well, at least I've got something new to swear at while beating the keyboard.

Regards;
Beanbag

 

[shanek]

Try SuSE 9.0. It just plain works, it just finds all the hardware, and YaST gets you on the net with a snap. I've been running it for a couple of months now, and it's really sweet.

 

[Zep]

Red Hat are supposed to have improved their "professional" desktop offering outa sight too, although I have yet to test that claim. A grephead acquaintance says it installs everything correctly out of the box, and has everything you need to get working.

OK, well, I'll believe it when I see it, but Red Hat usually don't make claims they can't live up to...

 

[Brian]

Saw an IBM commercial today about the "adopted orphan" linux. Is IBM's hand in this a good thing or bad?

 

[evildave]

It has the usual problems with new hardware. There's usually a 6~12 month lag between hardware being released and Linux support materializing for it. Mostly because hardware makers "ship it" with a windows driver and pretend there's nothing else in the world.

My desktop machine initially had no linux driver for its RAID controller, which was a bummer, since that's what the hard disks happen to be connected to. No embedded sound support, or working embedded network port support, and no full resolution DVI support for the monitor, either. Works fine in a VMWare session, though.

Probably the next batch of linux versions will support the mobo I bought last year with all those hardware bits explicitly, but it just goes to show you need to shop your hardware carefully if you're going to use Linux on it.

All that said, it shows promise, and has improved quite a lot over previous years.

Maybe if you want a lot of hand-holding for use, and hands-off on the setup, get Lindows.

 

[Zep]

evildave, do you have any experience with Lindows? It looks quite cute - just the nice sort of bundle that may suit some of my less techie clients...

Any comments pro and con?

 

[Beanbag]

Maybe if you want a lot of hand-holding for use, and hands-off on the setup, get Lindows.

Zep wanted your opinion on Lindows, and I'm interested, too. I looked at it on the web and considered it, but went with ThizLinux because I could get it, pre-installed, on a $199 desktop.

At this point, hand-holding and a non-geeky setup and install is what I want (and need). Thiz, unfortunately, does not appear to have any manuals or guides to help the Linux inept. I have seen Lindows manuals, and of course there are piles of Red Hat books out there. It's mainly a matter of finding one that fits my level of incompetance. Everybody had to start out with Linux for the first time, and a newbie needs a machine that works reliably out of the box so they can be sure that any screw-ups are their fault, and not because the OS hiccupped.

BTW, I see two versions of Red Hat -- the professional workstation and something they call Fedora. The price gives the impression that Fedora is Red Hat Lite.

Yes, I am a Windows "moron", but the first 'real' computer I owned was a Morrow MD-2 running CP/M (no hard drive, 5.25" 360K floppy based, and needed a terminal for display). Bought it new from the local computer store in the 70's, and enjoyed the spacious 64K of RAM it came with. I've graduated up thru XT class to AT, thru the 286's to the newer Pentiums. I still keep a DOS 6.0 machine around to run some useful programs that don't migrate well to a Windows XP MS/DOS prompt. I've built up a couple of Z-80 based microcomputers from the individual chip level using wire-wrap, and wrote the operating system and monitors for them from scratch in assembly (and hand-assembled the first versions of the OS, too, before I could afford a good assembler).

The point I'm trying to make is that I'm not stupid -- just ignorant. Fortunately, ignorance can be cured with some study. I appreciate the feedback and suggestions I get from this forum. Saves a lot of thrashing around.

Regards;
Beanbag

 

[Neutron Jack]

Why Linux will never replace Windows (for now)

Interesting title--here are some others:

• The best furniture in the world (in Italy)
• The greatest story ever told (this month)
• The most beautiful woman in the universe (that I've met)
• The trial of the millennium (for today)

 

[shanek]

Zep wanted your opinion on Lindows, and I'm interested, too. I looked at it on the web and considered it, but went with ThizLinux because I could get it, pre-installed, on a $199 desktop.

Wait a minute: It came pre-installed? And, presumably, pre-configured? And it STILL couldn't get you on the net or figure out your monitor's resolution?

They're idiots. That's just all there is to it. Nothing at all to do with Linux, just the pea-brains who apparently put it on your system.

 

[jimlintott]

My guess is that it didn't come with a monitor and as such probably had a very generic setting such as 640x480.

Try pressing ctrl-alt-+ (or -) this usually will switch through various display resolutions.

Also if you list the output of : (run this from a command line)

/sbin/ifconfig

We might be able to help sort out your network problem. Do you obtain an IP by DHCP or do you have to assign one?

 

[Cleon]

To be fair, each distribution has its own little quirks and idiosyncracies. For my money, outside of the "especially for desktop" distros the easiest to install and use are SuSe and Redhat. (Myself, I'm a Slackware holdout, but I always did have a sadomasochistic streak.)

But Linux, unfortunately, just isn't ready for mass use on the desktop. To be able to use the system, you really have to learn it.

There have been attempts, like Lindows. I've never used it, but apparently they've have some success at it. From what I understand, though, they're in the middle of a losing battle with the Borg over the name.

I think the desktop Linux renaissance has yet to come, and it will probably happen in the next 3-5 years. (Linus has been talking about this in his latest interviews, when he's not cursing the foul bacteria that spawned Darl McBride.)

 

[evildave]

As Cleon says, there are MANY distros of Linux. I'm sure the IBM version they sell with their servers is very well documented. There are a lot of hackish versions, too.

As for Lindows, I have no direct experience with it. It's supposed to have built-in tutorials. It's supposed to "just work". They have a "bullet proof" version where the OS resides on a CD-ROM for their Web-and-StarOffice computers (around $169 for the whole computer). In other words, the OS is immutable. You can't "break it". There are a few other CD-boot Linux variations floating around.

They're supposed to be very, very point and click oriented. They have their own installer "service" that leads you through hands-off setups of software for the non "immutable" versions.

Geez, they even sell it through Wal*Mart.

http://koobox.com/ has the whole shebang (monitor, too) for < $500.

http://info.lindows.com/mobilepc/mobilepc.htm
Here's a notebook for < $800.

 

[scribble]

Re: Re: Why Linux will never replace Windows (for now)

Interesting title--here are some others:

• The best furniture in the world (in Italy)
• The greatest story ever told (this month)
• The most beautiful woman in the universe (that I've met)
• The trial of the millennium (for today)

 

[Beanbag]

Wait a minute: It came pre-installed? And, presumably, pre-configured? And it STILL couldn't get you on the net or figure out your monitor's resolution?

They're idiots. That's just all there is to it. Nothing at all to do with Linux, just the pea-brains who apparently put it on your system.

Pre-installed on a 1 ghz system, 30 gig HD, 128 ,megs of ram, on-board video, 52x CD-ROM, modem, 10/100 ethernet, keyboard, and speakers, all for $199 plus tax. No monitor, though. I'm using a KDS 14" multisync monitor that goes up to 1024x768.

I was going to build up a simple system to start out with Linux, but decided that the Thiz system would actually cost less than buying the parts and trying to get them integrated. I was hoping for a manual of some kind, but all I got was the book for the motherboard and (interestingly enough) a set of instructions on how to remove ThizLinux and install Windows XP.

I can't complain about the system not working, nor can I complain about problems installing ThizLinux. Everything powered right up, and the OS loaded and KDE eventually appeared. Configuring it is another matter, and their web site offers no advice or support. The hardware is assembled by Great Quality PC, which I would rate as acceptable and a good buy for the money. The ethernet connection works -- the router recognizes that something's plugged in on that line. I'm reasonably certain that if I put a copy of Windows ME on the box, it would grab the ethernet interface and configure it just fine. I may set it up for a dual-boot this week, assuming I feel like twinking with it after work.

One good point is that the Matrix screen-saver looks cool.

Of course, I could just dump the whole Win World and go Mac. My brother, who lives two houses down from me, is a true Mac guru and would be glad to help me for at least the first two weeks. After that, he might not answer the doorbell.

Regards;
Beanbag

 

[Beanbag]

As Cleon says, there are MANY distros of Linux. I'm sure the IBM version they sell with their servers is very well documented. There are a lot of hackish versions, too.

As for Lindows, I have no direct experience with it. It's supposed to have built-in tutorials. It's supposed to "just work". They have a "bullet proof" version where the OS resides on a CD-ROM for their Web-and-StarOffice computers (around $169 for the whole computer). In other words, the OS is immutable. You can't "break it". There are a few other CD-boot Linux variations floating around.

They're supposed to be very, very point and click oriented. They have their own installer "service" that leads you through hands-off setups of software for the non "immutable" versions.

Geez, they even sell it through Wal*Mart.

http://koobox.com/ has the whole shebang (monitor, too) for < $500.

http://info.lindows.com/mobilepc/mobilepc.htm
Here's a notebook for < $800.

Well, maybe Lindows will do what the Mac promised, and make the personal computer an actual appliance. There were days I would have killed for a computer that I could just take out of the box, plug in, and use it without having to flip bits and fiddle with it.

However, I've been through this several times before, when I've switched OS's in the past. There was the jump from CP/M to MS/DOS, then to Windows 98, ME, and now XP. I didn't like it then, and I don't like it now, but I'll survive and hopefully prosper.

Thanks for the input.

Regards;
Beanbag

 

[Beanbag]

My guess is that it didn't come with a monitor and as such probably had a very generic setting such as 640x480.

Try pressing ctrl-alt-+ (or -) this usually will switch through various display resolutions.

Also if you list the output of : (run this from a command line)

/sbin/ifconfig

We might be able to help sort out your network problem. Do you obtain an IP by DHCP or do you have to assign one?

Tried your ctrl-alt- +or- suggestion. Nothing happened from inside KDE.

I brought up a "run a command" box from KDE and typed in "sbin/ifconfig" and hit the Run button. Other than the box clearing, I couldn't see anything happening, though the hard drive light flickered on for a bit. Yes, I paid attention to correct case -- I know that matters in Unix/Linux. I expected some kind of response or output, in a window or something like a command-line interface screen, but nothing appeared. If there was some response, it never made it on top of the pretty graphics bacground of KDE.

I suspect that when they slammed ThizLinux on the hard drive, they set it for the lowest common denominator resolution of 640x480. Unfortunately, I know almost nothing about Linux, either using it, and most certainly almost nothing about installing or configuring it.

Since I'm a complete idiot when it comes to Linux, the best advice I can give you for any future suggestions is to assume I'm REALLY stupid, and you won't go too wrong. Things you might do without thinking are NOT going to be done the same way by me.

Regards;
Beanbag

 

[LW]

One interesting Linux distro is knoppix. It runs from a single bootable CD. I tested it this weekend and it worked rather well, configuring itself automatically and it even recognized my usb digital camera (a feat that I haven't been able to duplicate with my Debian 3.0 for some obscure reason).

I think that knoppix might be a good introductionary distro as you may play with it without having to reinstall your system. Just remove the cd from drive when you are done and the computer boots to the old system.

 

[Cleon]

One interesting Linux distro is knoppix. It runs from a single bootable CD. I tested it this weekend and it worked rather well, configuring itself automatically and it even recognized my usb digital camera (a feat that I haven't been able to duplicate with my Debian 3.0 for some obscure reason).

Knoppix is a real good "toy" distribution. You want Linux, don't want to #$% with your hard drive, you just want something to play around with or do some basic Linux development without making a major committment, use Knoppix.

I've never seen it used as a full distro, though; I'm rather curious as to how it would work out.

 

[corplinx]

I brought up a "run a command" box from KDE and typed in "sbin/ifconfig" and hit the Run button. Other than the box clearing, I couldn't see anything happening, though the hard drive light flickered on for a bit.

ifconfig runs and ends, its a command line program, the same thing happens if you do a start->run->ipconfig on Windows.

Run ifconfig from a terminal window to see the output.

 

[Beanbag]

Aha! Somebody who realizes just how Linux-ignorant I really am! Salvation awaits, or at least maybe some suggestions that I will understand and be able to implement correctly.

Thank you.

And on a lighter note, I just bought the O'reily book, Linux in a Nutshell, for a little light reading. Every OS should have a manual, and maybe I won't come across as a total incompetant after a couple days' reading.

Regards;
Beanbag
(Maybe the light at the end of the tunnel isn't the 8:15 express)