Why are they sins?

[themyst]

Something that always bothers me in this Christian/Judao/Islamic idea of certain sins, namely Drink, Sex and physical pleasures.

It says in the bible that their god commanded that they go 'forth and procreate' (procreate? create? creators? Maybe for another discussion)

It also said that god's very own son turned water (healthy beverage) into wine (unhealthy beverage). It says very clearly that he turned it into wine, not grape juice, very good wine in fact.

If you look at the human body (created in his own image?) it is designed, more so than all other creatures' on this planet, to experience great pleasures, be it eating a meal, taking time out with friends and family or just a plain good old bonk.

The bible demands we have sex, we are built for pleasure, god's own son makes wine and his very last beverage before dieing was indeed wine. He even requested his follows to drink it with him and to remember him by that exact beverage.

Why? I mean really, why are christians so against these things?

We won't even go into all the commands that he gave his followers that they so blantently ignore.

 

[AmateurScientist]

Pious Christians who denounce such perfectly natural hedonistic pleasures usually aren't very Christian in the sense that they hardly follow the ideals of their deity. Their sins are the result of a horribly destructive fixation with guilt. They wallow in guilt at having cravings for such "wordly" pleasures, and as a result of a calling of self-denial, they feel impelled to deny those same pleasures to others. The best mechanism for doing so is to label them "sin."

It's all made up. You can laugh with the sinners or cry with the saints. Your choice.

AS

 

[themyst]

I get the idea that it is all made up and if I were to make a belief system I would include the idea of lots of sex and food, which the bible did.

Does anyone know of any christian group that actually follows the ideas of pleasure in the bible?

 

[boloboffin]

Christianity is by and large against the pleasures of the flesh because Paul had a stick up his ass about the Greek dichotomy between flesh and spirit.

Sex has always been controlled by the priests of the world because a) women used to be considered the property of men, and property rights had to be protected in a society, b) a good way to spread your religion is to proselytize the children of the believers, who stand less of a chance of overcoming lifelong indoctrination, and c) the best way to induce the amount of cognitive dissonance necessary for mysticism is to convince someone that their natural desires for pleasure are a heinous insult to God.

 

[clarsct]

It goes deeper.

Guilt is how you control people. You can't control people very well through pleasure. The system is unstable as you must continually up the ante, and there's only so much the human body can do. Once you have someone loathing themselves, and you prop the door to a way out with your foot, then you own them forever.

Secondly, religious ecstacy experienced by believers can only be rivaled by one thing: orgasm. In reality, religious ecstacy is produced by the release of a subverted sex drive. So don't have sex or do a drug to feel good, have your orgasms at church.

It's a one-two punch that brings in the masses, along with all their lovely money.

 

[Tricky]

Something that always bothers me in this Christian/Judao/Islamic idea of certain sins, namely Drink, Sex and physical pleasures.

It says in the bible that their god commanded that they go 'forth and procreate' (procreate? create? creators? Maybe for another discussion)

It also said that god's very own son turned water (healthy beverage) into wine (unhealthy beverage). It says very clearly that he turned it into wine, not grape juice, very good wine in fact.

If you look at the human body (created in his own image?) it is designed, more so than all other creatures' on this planet, to experience great pleasures, be it eating a meal, taking time out with friends and family or just a plain good old bonk.

The bible demands we have sex, we are built for pleasure, god's own son makes wine and his very last beverage before dieing was indeed wine. He even requested his follows to drink it with him and to remember him by that exact beverage.

Why? I mean really, why are christians so against these things?

We won't even go into all the commands that he gave his followers that they so blantently ignore.

Ah, I was just quoting The Rubaiyat on another thread. So well it fits here too. Omar uses wine as a metaphor for all the "sins of the flesh", so extrapolate as you will.

LXI.

Why, be this Juice the growth of God, who dare
Blaspheme the twisted tendril as a Snare?
..A Blessing, we should use it, should we not?
And if a Curse--why, then, Who set it there?

LXII.
I must abjure the Balm of Life, I must,
Scared by some After-reckoning ta'en on trust,
..Or lured with Hope of some Diviner Drink,
To fill the Cup--when crumbled into Dust!

LXIII. Oh threats of Hell and Hopes of Paradise!
One thing at least is certain--This Life flies;
..One thing is certain and the rest is Lies;
The Flower that once has blown for ever dies.

 

[CP489]

It goes deeper.

Guilt is how you control people. You can't control people very well through pleasure. The system is unstable as you must continually up the ante, and there's only so much the human body can do. Once you have someone loathing themselves, and you prop the door to a way out with your foot, then you own them forever.

Secondly, religious ecstacy experienced by believers can only be rivaled by one thing: orgasm. In reality, religious ecstacy is produced by the release of a subverted sex drive. So don't have sex or do a drug to feel good, have your orgasms at church.

It's a one-two punch that brings in the masses, along with all their lovely money.

That is well written and quite to the point. Very nice. Nominated.

 

[Skeptic]

Something that always bothers me in this Christian/Judao/Islamic idea of certain sins, namely Drink, Sex and physical pleasures.

Er, sex, food, and money (for example) aren't sins. Lust, gluttony, and avarice are.

Not the same thing.

Why? I mean really, why are christians so against these things?

Nothing. The problem is a matter of degree: of making sex (or drink, or money) more important, central, and so on that it should be. The church is not really saying something particularly different than Aristotle; it only puts it in religious garb.

 

[clarsct]

That is well written and quite to the point. Very nice. Nominated.

*bow*

 

[Rufo]

The wish to distance oneself from the physical world is central to many, though not all, religions. Since one's object of workship usually exists in a "higher realm" (which can really only be proven to exist in one's mind), one tends to seek pleasures connected to that realm (in the mind), in order to get closer to the object of workship. The more pleasures one experiences of the physical world, the more fond one gets of it, and the more it competes with the "higher" realm and the object of workship. That is why even someone who formed a personal religion themselves, without intention to control others, might also include these as "sins".

Also, some of these behaviors are actually harmful. You can hardly object to the fact that alcohol causes a great deal of trouble.

 

[Beerina]

It also said that god's very own son turned water (healthy beverage) into wine (unhealthy beverage).

Historically it was exactly the opposite. Drinking water could be loaded with bacterial crud. Wine was the processed, pure, drinkable stuff.

 

[HeyLeroy]

All well and good, but what's up with the tenth commandment: "Thou shalt not boil a kid in it's mother's milk"? I've never had baby-goat stew. It may be quite good, but sinful?

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

All well and good, but what's up with the tenth commandment: "Thou shalt not boil a kid in it's mother's milk"? I've never had baby-goat stew. It may be quite good, but sinful?

Boiling tender meat??? There should be a law against that! Oh, wait there is. Seems a bit extreme though.

 

[skeptifem]

I would say that when these things were written the sins were very dangerous. Pork for instance was very dangerous and there wasnt a way to protect yourself from stds. Science and technology give us the tools to enjoy sins without consequence.

 

[kurious_kathy]

I would say that when these things were written the sins were very dangerous. Pork for instance was very dangerous and there wasnt a way to protect yourself from stds. Science and technology give us the tools to enjoy sins without consequence.

Don't kid yourself, all sin has consequences.

 

[Meadmaker]

All well and good, but what's up with the tenth commandment: "Thou shalt not boil a kid in it's mother's milk"? I've never had baby-goat stew. It may be quite good, but sinful?

My guess, and this is only a guess, is that boiling meat in milk was a popular method of cooking in ancient Israel, but they tended to not boil it long enough, because the milk might burn, so they ended up eating undercooked meat.

When the rabbis or priests observed people dying, they naturally assumed God must be punishing them. (Aside: They hadn't read the book of Job.) The conclusion was obvious: God doesn't like it when you cook meat in milk.


(Aside number 2: It reminds me of, "He hates these cans!")

 

[Ryan O'Dine]

People are forgetting the many physical pleasures which can be interpreted (and have been) as encouraged in the New and old Testaments. Such as...

1. The pleasure of going on crusades.

2. The pleasure of gay bashing.

3. The pleasure of slave ownership.

4. The pleasure of stoning.

5. Etc, etc.

Is it really asking so much to give up sex and booze if you’re allowed to do all that in return? (Ok, don't answer that. )

 

[Marc L]

I would say that when these things were written the sins were very dangerous. Pork for instance was very dangerous

I've heard that. I've never seen any evidence, though. Do you know of any?

and there wasnt a way to protect yourself from stds.

Unfortunately, this assumes that people were aware that the diseases they were catching were from sexual contact. Also, the risk of STDs goes way up the more sex partners you have. I'd be really surprised to learn that the ancients were engaged in mass orgies every night with different partners every night.*

As Skeptic said, though, it wasn't that sex, drink and physical pleasures were sins. In fact, Proverbs even mentions enjoying sex with your spouse. In the case of alcohol, it was drunkeness that was a sin. Sex was wrong in specific contexts (homosexuality, incest, and beastiality, off of the top of my head), but not considered sinful per se (I hope I used that right). Sex in marriage, or with your concubines (if you were male) was quite proper, and a way to be fruitful and multiply.

Themyst, you mention "physical pleasures". Can you be more specific?

*I'm being deliberately ridiculous, here. I'm really not trying to make a strawman.

Marc

 

[Steven Howard]

All well and good, but what's up with the tenth commandment: "Thou shalt not boil a kid in it's mother's milk"? I've never had baby-goat stew. It may be quite good, but sinful?

I've read that this is actually a reference to a fertility ritual practiced by the Canaanites. You know, the people who somehow wound up living on the land that Yahweh meant for the Israelites to have. So it's not really a dietary law, but rather a "don't start worshipping with the heathens" law.

 

[HeyLeroy]

I would say that when these things were written the sins were very dangerous. Pork for instance was very dangerous and there wasnt a way to protect yourself from stds. Science and technology give us the tools to enjoy sins without consequence.

Hey, if you catch an STD from porkin' pork that's entirely your business.

People are forgetting the many physical pleasures which can be interpreted (and have been) as encouraged in the New and old Testaments. Such as...

1. The pleasure of going on crusades.

2. The pleasure of gay bashing.

3. The pleasure of slave ownership.

4. The pleasure of stoning.

5. Etc, etc.

Is it really asking so much to give up sex and booze if you’re allowed to do all that in return? (Ok, don't answer that. )

5. The pleasure of having sex with a prostitute, as long as you burn a ram in sacrifice. Etc.