Why are some terrorists more shocking than others?

[richardm]

Posts are not harmful. Anyone can post what they want yet nothing is ever "harmed". They are just ones and zeros in cyberspace that appear as text on our monitors. You may not agree with a post, but it harms nothing.

My original post had to do with the ETA and why terrorism is unjustifiable when it takes place outside of Israel. Wow, what a war crime, how dare I say that in this thread !

I recommend you live up to your ideals and ask Jon_in_london why he said "I give this thread 2 hours before it turn into an Isreal/Palestine slanging match." That has nothing to do with "Madrid" either richardm.

See, when Jon talked about an "Israel/Palestine slanging match", he meant that sooner or later someone would bring them up; once that happened the discussion would degenerate into a different argument and the discussion about Madrid would be lost in the crossfire. It has happened many times in the past. I believe that would be a shame to let that happen to the Madrid thread, since the events are important ones and are not directly concerned with Israel or Palestine.

If you want to wonder why people are disbelieving at what has happened in Madrid yet seem to find the Palestinian suicide bombings understandable, do it here.

I'd also add that I don't believe that you're stupid, so can only assume that your comments here are dishonest and a deliberate attempt to derail the other thread.

So:

The ETA is justified in blowing up three Madrid train stations. Why?

1) The Spanish "settlements" on Bask land.

2) The Spanish "occupation" of Bask lands.

3) The Spanish government's "arrests and assasinations" of Bask leaders.

4) The French "deportations" of all the ETA members in 1986.



Or is blowing up civilians only acceptable when Israelis are the targets?

What do you think?

 

[The Don]

Damn you Richardm
http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36895

 

[Cleopatra]

Before I reply, Richard could you consider please to make this thread a moderated one?

 

[richardm]

Before I reply, Richard could you consider please to make this thread a moderated one?

How do you mean?

Any thread about Israel turns into a huge slanging match at some point, anyway

It is quite an interesting question, I think, and I'd be interested to hear thoughts. I hope it's not just "because everyone in the world is anti-semitic"; I'd like to think it's more complex than that.



(Edited to add the last paragraph, and fix speeling)

 

[Cleopatra]

Have a look here

I agree that's an interesting topic but I cannot post in threads anymore that a minimum of order will not be kept.I think that everybody is fed up with that.

 

[richardm]

Well, I'm not a moderator so I can't oblige, I'm afraid.

If there is a friendly mod out there who'd like to play, I'd be grateful, since I suspect Cleopatra has a lot to say on the subject!

 

[Cleopatra]

I think that all you have to do is to PM a mod Unless you "hire" me to fix the matter for you.

 

[richardm]

Unless you "hire" me to fix the matter for you.

Please do, they won't dare turn you down, while I might get all sorts of rebuffs - "I'm washing my hair", "I'm getting my plants neutered", that sort of thing

I just hope your fees aren't too onerous

 

[Cleopatra]

Those who will post after this message must have in mind that we will ask the mods to moderate this thread.This might take some time so, this is why we( my client and I ) are letting you know in advance.

 

[epepke]

I think it has a lot to do with whether it's unusual or not.

We in Florida don't think that hurricanes are a big deal, because they happen all the time. Yet one strikes New York, and its a big deal. Earthquakes don't bother your average Angelino, but if one happened in Florida (which it probably won't, because Florida is basically a big sand bar) we'd probably go just as ape as when New York gets a hurricane. Most Floridians can't drive on ice or snow, but the Midwesterners who come down here are similarly challenged about the wisdom of buying retreads.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Allow me to illustrate the irony of the entire affair.

This threads topic is:

"Why are some terrorists more shocking than others?"

Yet there is not one example of a terrorist event more shocking than others. Just a rehashing of my single post in another thread.

Ironic huh?

 

[Luke T.]

<table cellspacing=1 cellpadding=6 bgcolor=#666699 border=0><tr><td bgcolor=white><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" color=#666699 size=2>Edited by Luke T.: Luke T. will be moderating this topic as time permits. There may be delays. All flames, derailments, etc. will be edited out. Address only those posts made in this topic from here on. Have fun!</font></td></tr></table>

 

[The Don]

Or is blowing up civilians only acceptable when Israelis are the targets?

Short answer:
No - blowing up civilians is never acceptable

Longer answer:
I think that it's wholly improper to try and imply that the situation in the Basque region is in any real way analgous to the situation in Palestine. Anyone who would attempt to justify the suicide bombings would, I assume attempt to do so by using one or more of the following canards:

- There's no such thing as an Israeli civilian. They're all agents in a Zionist army
- The ends justify the means, the oppression of the Palestinians is such that this is the only way that they can fight back
- They started it (in 1948 or 1967 or 4,000 years ago)
- We're just protecting ourselves aganis ethnic cleansing/genocide

One thing which IS difficult is understanding that do genuinely feel this way either because of their life experience or the way in which thay have been brainwashed. I'm not sure what you do to address this or how you can move toward some kind of negotiation when there are fringe elements whose only purpose seems to be clinging to their position of power by perpetuating the situation.

I would say that it has got to the stage where the "terrorist" organisations would not even be happy if Israel suddenly disappeared. THey'd have nothing to do and they would no longer be big men in their communities.

 

[richardm]

Perhaps Epepke has put his finger on it when he says it is a question of familiarity.

I used to know a girl who came from Belfast, and she said it was so common to find the results of violence - the example she gave was burned/bombed out pubs - that the most you felt was annoyance that you'd have to find another one.

Perhaps it's the same thing here. The whole cycle in Israel / Palestine is so predictable that it's no great surprise that there is an inclination to say "Oh, again?", even though real people have been killed and maimed.

Whereas you don't see this happening very often in Madrid, so it is all the more shocking.

At the same time I can't help but wonder if there is an element of... I'm not going to go so far as to say racism, but I'd suggest that because the events are so far away, there is a degree of detachment. Add to that the scenes we commonly see of Israel/Palestine/Iraq which for many of the posters here look very different in terms of buildings and lifestyle to the scenes we see around us every day, and the detachment might grow.

 

[Tmy]

Monitor this thread? WTF is up wit dat?


Hey has the ETA taken credit for this attack. Or are we just assuming its them. It couldve been football holligans upset about Beckem going to Real Madrid!

 

[zenith-nadir]

Longer answer:
I think that it's wholly improper to try and imply that the situation in the Basque region is in any real way analgous to the situation in Palestine.

Actually they are very similar.

1) The ETA is a group that uses terrorism in hopes of forming an independent Basque state in parts of northern Spain and southwest France.

2) They kill innocent civilians.

3) The Spanish have cracked down effectively on the ETA with arrests and raids reducing their operations from 44 attacks with 23 killed in 2000 to 17 attacks with 3 killed in 2003.



Replace Spain with Israel and ETA with Palestinian terror groups and voila!....

 

[Luke T.]

Monitor this thread? WTF is up wit dat?

This is being done by request. My impression is that the originator and at least one participant felt this topic contains potential volatile subject matter and they want to keep it civil and on track. This is new ground for me, but I am happy to oblige.

 

[The Don]

Depends how you select your statements. In my post I attempted to demonstrate a number of ways in which the situations were not analgous.

I'm not claiming that the Palestinians are in any way justified in carrying out their terrorist acts. I would however say that the level of engagement/intervention of Israel in the occupied territories far exceeds that of the Spanish government in the Basque region.

 

[Jon_in_london]

One might also argue that there are no longer any peacefull avenues open to the Palestinians, and in any case, the only reason the world is aware of the plight of the Palestinians is because they started a campaign of high-profile international terrorism.

 

[Reginald]

I have never commented on these boards about the Palestine/Israel issue. So for anyone to claim I don't like a response is pure guess work.

Terrorists blowing up civilians is wrong. I understand Richardm's comments about people in Belfast taking a different view, becoming, if you like, acclimatised to continual terror. I feel however that acceptance is a right only of those being terrorised, it's a way they get by. For any outsider in any situation to begin to feel that one terror act is less appalling than any other is, IMO, rather heartless.

I wish that continual outrage, were in some way an answer.

Hundreds of people die and usually the net result is that the other side hardens their line, or looks for a bigger target next time. It's all so self defeating.