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Which Ethical System

Camillus

Critical Thinker
Joined
Dec 24, 2003
Messages
483
Title says it all really; which ethical system do you personally feel is the 'best'.

I have to say that I've plumped for Virtue Ethics; believing that it is individuals that make the difference not the rule or decision making making system they live in. Following from that I have to plump for developing Virtues in people as the way to promote the best for all.
 
Best Ethical System:

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I like Immanuel Kant's take on it all (with a few tweeks).

I can find enough in Kantian ethics to condemn the treatment of the Iraqi prisoners.
 
Ladewig said:
I like Immanuel Kant's take on it all (with a few tweeks).
A few tweeks here and there. Kant's rebuttles to basic challenges to his Catergorical Imperative were rather weak.

Me: Hey, Kant, do you expect people to be honest with you.
Kant: Sure, everyone should be honest.
Me: What if a murderer comes up to you and asks you to point him in the direction of his fleeing prey, should you do so?
Kant: Of course not, but you dont have to lie. You can say "no comment".
Me: So "no comment" is an acceptable answer to all questions?
Kant: ...No comment...

:D

I can find enough in Kantian ethics to condemn the treatment of the Iraqi prisoners.
I agree :)
 
I tend to choose "what feels best" at the time, which suggests some larger underlying ethics system burried somewhere next to the neutrino emmiter.

I imagine it has something to do with looking good all the time, and taking over the universe.
 
Camillus said:
Title says it all really; which ethical system do you personally feel is the 'best'.

I have to say that I've plumped for Virtue Ethics; believing that it is individuals that make the difference not the rule or decision making making system they live in. Following from that I have to plump for developing Virtues in people as the way to promote the best for all.

Interesting. Do you know of a good site with good definitions/axioms for these systems?
 
Re: Re: Which Ethical System

Gestahl said:
Interesting. Do you know of a good site with good definitions/axioms for these systems?
Good Laymen's Philosophical Dictionary:
http://www.philosophypages.com/dy/

From Philosophical Dictionary - Virtue Ethics:
Normative theory that all moral value is derived from the character of moral agents. Aristotle and many medieval Christians assumed that the acquisition of virtue is the proper goal of human conduct, though they differed significantly in their valuation of particular virtues. Rejecting the impersonality of moral judgments in the ethical theories of Kant and Mill, contemporary virtue ethicists emphasize the achievement of a meaningful life.
Very interesting, I like the sound of this one (although its difficult to determine which virtues a person should hold).


From Philosophical Dictionary - Deontology:
A deontological normative theory holds that moral worth is an intrinsic feature of human actions, determined by formal rules of conduct. Thus, deontologists like Kant suppose that moral obligation rests solely upon duty, without requiring any reference to the practical consequences that dutiful actions may happen have.
Rightness and wrongness of acts is determined from a person's motives and intentions, neglecting the outcome of such acts.

Hmmmm...


From Philosophical Dictionary - Consequentialism:
Any normative theory holding that human actions derive their moral worth solely from the outcomes or results that they produce. Utilitarianism is a consequentialist theory that typically identifies happiness or pleasure as the favored consequence. One of the difficulties inherent in the practical application of any such theory is our notoriously feeble ability (or willingness) to predict accurately what consequences our own actions will produce.
Neglecting motives of a persons actions, and focusing strictly on the outcome. This conflicts with deontology...

A situation: Bob is stealing plates, in the process he breaks two of them. Steve is minding his own business, but unintentionally bumps a table and breaks ten plates. By consequentialism, would Steve be more "guilty" than Bob?


Of the three, I like Virtue Ethics.
 
I can't say I follow any certain ethical system...maybe I do, and don't know its name.

I try to look at things logically, and try to see them from an impersonal standpoint,then decide what to do from there.

My decision has already made...I guess what I'm trying to do now is figure out why and how I made that decision.
 
Re: Re: Re: Which Ethical System

Yahweh said:

(Snip very good sources).

Of the three, I like Virtue Ethics.

Wow, thanks YHWH. Good sources. Plus, that philosophy pages site is awesome.

However, I am going to have to vote for consequentialism. The only reason to have ethics is that we have a value system for determining the "goodness" of a situation. Ethics are there to improve said situation. We can know nothing truly of intent or motives for other people, and I don't like a theory not applicable to only myself. Deontology is out. Virtue ethics seems good, but blindly following any virtue is clearly not optimal, nor is it clear which relative weights virtue should have (I was trying to point this out in another thread, but it died by Godwin's law).

Plus, *neither* of those systems seem to acknowledge that you should be held responsible if bad things still happen. This runs counter to several war crimes laws (i.e. in deontology, a soldier might be following orders (Kant's favorite of duty), but still be brought up on war crimes). While in virue ethics you can have the best intentions or virtues, make things worse, and not be responsible for it.

I would take consequentialism as my vote. Do not take this to mean "the ends justify the means." This would mean many intermediate "bad things" could still be morally good. They are not, in my thinking. Actions are discrete, not compound in my moral view. The only problem with consequentialism is that you need a good way to relatively weigh outcomes. I believe this is a less serious problem than dealing with the vagueness of virtue ethics, however.

(Interesting how I did not know these terms, but conceptually they map very well to the different moral systems I have thought about... great minds think alike? ;-)

Yahweh, your examples help show why this system is good at dealing with imperfect knowledge (i.e. you can't know people's intentions, nor what virtue they are trying to follow). In your example, the latter would get in more trouble, simply because objectively, it is worse (obviously in your example the stealing is not known about) for the owner and everyone involved, by all accounts. Reality is more of an absolute than ideals, virtues, or purpose (how do you know what someone's true ideals, virtues or puposes are?). We get around the problem of blaming people when bad things just happen, even with the best intentions, by claiming that humans should learn from mistakes, and if the situation were repeated again, they should make another choice. This makes people responsible for finding the patterns in behaviour that elicit the best situations, regardless of some set of lofty, confliciting ideals that are poorly defined and whose meanings vary from person to person. Now, we just have one term that we need to define: "good".

Edited to change some "morals" to "ethics". I get the two confused all the time.
 
Re: Re: Re: Which Ethical System

Yahweh said:
A situation: Bob is stealing plates, in the process he breaks two of them. Steve is minding his own business, but unintentionally bumps a table and breaks ten plates. By consequentialism, would Steve be more "guilty" than Bob?

The problem with these types of examples (or maybe the problem with consequentialism itself) is that they ignore the full complexity of the situation. For example, how likely would the guy who broke the plates by accident be to bring the damage to the owner's attention, and offer to pay for them himself? A lot more likely than the thief.

And if he doesn't, then he's intentionally concealing a large amount of damage. In my book, yes, that is worse than petty theft.

In the modern era, consequentialism gets even harder because everyone has insurance for everything. Sure, when insurance pays for something, the cost is still there, but it gets spread around, and people are so desensitized to it that they don't usually even think about it. A lot of actions (even those that cause major injuries or property damage) can appear to have almost no consequences. It's scary.

Jeremy
 
You can find a quite an in depth overview of Virtue Ethics here. It's by Rosalind Hursthouse who is a well known supporter of Virtue Ethics.

It addresses some of the misconceptions about Virtue Ethics and, I think, answers some of Gesthal's points.
 
Camillus said:
You can find a quite an in depth overview of Virtue Ethics here. It's by Rosalind Hursthouse who is a well known supporter of Virtue Ethics.

It addresses some of the misconceptions about Virtue Ethics and, I think, answers some of Gesthal's points.

Thanks Camillus. Give me a few days on this...
 
Well, I voted "I don't need no stinking Ethics" because I can't go along with the other three, though Virtue Ethics is a new term to me (the idea behind it isn't though).

I'm more along the lines of Nietzsche, I suppose.

To each his own.

Adam
 

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