When to homeschool?

[Wavicle]

Yesterday I went to my first ever Parent-Teacher conference. My daughter's kindergarten teacher laid out a big legal-sized report card that listed all of her strengths and weaknesses. To make a long story short, academically my daughter is performing above most first graders in most subjects at this point in the school year (she would be a little behind in writing, way ahead in reading, and about on par in math). She's so far ahead of her peers in kindergarten, my concern is that she is bored with the lessons.

The real kicker. Her Kindergarten teacher is expressing concern over whether or not my daughter will be ready for promotion to the first grade at the end of this year. While academically she is way ahead of everybody else, emotionally she is immature. My daughter is the youngest one in her kindergarten class. She started when she was still 4 and only turned 5 a few weeks ago, whereas all the other kids in her class are turning 6. This teacher suggested I observe the first grade class one day to see what would be expected of her, and why she believes my daughter would not be prepared to move on (for the K to 1 transition, I can override the school's decision).

In general I agree with the diagnosis, my daughter acts younger than she is, but I disagree with the treatment plan. One of the things that really caught me were the objective measures of whether or not she's prepared to move on: she does not like to leave work unfinished. If she's working on art, she will forego recess to complete her masterpiece. If she's reading a book, she's reluctant to break away to do some counting exercise which she has long since mastered.

Apparently not putting down what you're doing and moving on to something else is a sign of immaturity. Well, maybe it is. I have absolutely no training in early childhood education, and the fact that this is my own child clouds my judgment.

My feeling is that "held back" has a stigma attached to it. Despite what the teacher tells me, I just don't see it practical that my daughter will be getting 2nd grade level work while her peers will be getting kindergarten instruction. I believe her kindergarten teacher is a very capable, intelligent, motivated woman. But she is human and can only do so much in a class of 25 other kids. I'm thinking that instead of having my daughter retained in kindergarten, I would rather pull her out, and have my wife (who already stays at home with the two younger boys) homeschool her until her maturity is more in line with her academics.

I do not think my daughter is "extremely bright" as her teacher says, I think she is benefitting a lot from individualized parental attention. Before the start of kindergarten, she and I played games to learn reading. That evolved (or was intelligently designed... you pick ) to games for reasoning, counting, adding, subtracting. We only get to do this for about an hour every other day (I'm a full time software engineer) but it seems to be helping. I've posted on the other homeschool thread in here before. I don't know if it helps any but we aren't fundy whack-jobs and we both hold 4-year degrees (both Math/Science fields).

So what do people here think? In this edge case would I be better served by pulling my daughter out until she 'grows up'? Do you think I should have her re-take kindergarten if that's what the teacher reccomends? Should I override that decision?

 

[bigred]

Personally given her IMO stupid reasons for holding back (completing tasks is immature? wtflip over?) and being no fan of "home school" (this doesn't exactly help in social developement) I favor an override. She means well but phooey on the teach. This would give your daughter another year to "mature" etc.

 

[jskowron]

It's pretty early in the year to be making decisions about next year's placement. I would ask (demand?) to know what active strategies the school has to offer your daughter to help her acquire the social skills that she is lacking. Just as she was directly taught and reinforced for reading, counting, etc., she should be directly taught to how to plan out how to fininsh activities in the allotted time and transition to the next activity (or at least transition without finishing the first activity). These skills can be as important as academics during early elementary school, and it has been my professional experience that social skills problems can have a much more dramatic impact than academic deficits later on (I could have made my carreer focusing only social skills of 4th graders, if I could only have learned to better tolerate their general lack of logical thinking and rationality). While a difference is to be expected between the youngest and oldest kindergarteners (potentially a 20% or more difference in age), your daughter was excepted into the kindergarten and should be taught the skills necessary for success- academic, socially, or otherwise.

 

[drkitten]

It's pretty early in the year to be making decisions about next year's placement.

That's my thought as well. Almost to an unprofessional degree.

If your teacher thinks that your daughter needs to acquire social skills, I would expect her to start teaching social skills to her. I mean, if a teacher told me in November that my daughter was deficient in mathematics, and so wanted to hold her back instead of spending December through June working on improving her math skills....

I get really annoyed when a team loses hope and seems to stop playing in the middle of the first period. But I'd be even more annoyed if the coach stopped coaching in the middle of the first period. ("Yeah, boys, we're down by two scores. I'm going home at halftime and getting a beer. Anyone want to join me?")

 

[Wavicle]

Thanks for all the replies so far. One thing maybe I should clarify is that yesterday's suggestion of holding her back did not hit me by suprise. The very first day when we went to pick my daughter up from Kindergarten her teacher pulled us aside and said "She's VERY young, it might be better if you guys pull her out now and have her start next year instead." The biggest issue that first day was she threw a fit when school was over and her craft was not finished so she left the room crying.

We talked with my daughter about this and asked her if she wanted to go back to Kindergarten the next day or not, and she said she did. So we told the teacher that we would take a "let's wait and see" approach. For the next few weeks the teacher would ask "have you decided whether or not she is going to take Kindergarten once or twice yet?" (I know this seems like it was asked in a condescending tone, but she is a very nice person and asked the question with concern and compassion in her voice and mannerisms)

I did feel like the teacher had made up her mind in the first week (or day) and that was a little unfair. However we have not had any reports of fits thrown since the first couple weeks. I figured my daughter saw how other kids were acting and 'matured.' I hadn't heard talk of holding her back a year in over a month. During the conference we were told that the teacher had asked the school's principal to observe and give some input. The principal apparently had no clear idea what to do either, agreeing that my daughter was both academically advanced and immature.

 

[jskowron]

agreeing that my daughter was both academically advanced and immature.

I would suggest that she is not "immature" in the sense that she is lacking in skills normally displayed by children her age. It would seem that reasonable variance in maturity for her someone her chronological age puts her at less socially mature than others in her class who are chronologically older. The problem is not that she has underdeveloped social skills, but that her appropriately developed social skills still put her at a level lower than what is displayed by her classmates. Whatever the case, if she stays in the class, she should be directly taught the skills necessary to be successful. In my experience, this is usually pretty easy, fun for the kid, and fun for the teacher.

My oldest child just started Kindergarten this year. She is pretty advanced with teacher-preferred social skills (e.g. listening in class, turn taking, sitting quietly while others talk) and classroom readiness social skills (following lessons, preparing for class), but is probably on the low end of average in peer preferred social skills (e.g. joining in, starting conversations). I think this couls be because, unlike mosto fo her classmates, she was not in pre-school last year. She still is a little clingy when I bring her in, and often sobs when I leave after dropping her off. I expect her teachers to teach work with her (and me) on this, and have been happy with their response. My youngest is 3 years old and is in preschool. He couldn't care less when I leave after dropping him off and has relatively less problems with joining in with other kids, but his ability to sit and listen to lessen and wait his turn are, well, that of a 3 year old! There is great variation in skills at this age. Most kids without significant learning or developmental disabilities pick up the necessary skills within the typical elementary curriculum and it all evens out in the end.

I am, however, still quite shocked at your daughter's teacher's quick conclusion and rather radical suggested intervention.

Best of luck

 

[bigred]

PS I'm just curious: why did she start so early?

 

[Beth]

Homeschool her. It's sooooo much better!

 

[jimlintott]

I say throw her to the wolves. I know that sounds callous but social skills are learned through experience if you remove her from the experience then how is she to learn? If she is bright and wants to learn academically how will she take to failing kindergarden? That might be worse than having a few fits. If she repeats kindergarden there will be some kid who will point out that she failed kindergarden.

If she is bright she'll figure it out.

 

[Harlequin]

I agree about it being early in the year to make decisions. I had a very similar situation with one of my daughters. In her case, she was too young (by 10 days) to go ahead into Gr1, so we didn't push it. It was a choice between her being the youngest in her class forever or the oldest.

We chose to make her do a second year of Kg (normal) instead of pushing her ahead. Despite changing to a different school (&country, &language) for the second year, she was very bored by the time the year ended.

Still, she has handled Gr1 much better this year than I think she would have if she did it last year. So, you could try some sort of special Kg program for the one year to make it a little more interesting and then put her into Gr1 next year.

I'd be careful of home-schooling unless you plan to keep it up for a long time. It could make it even more difficult for her to integrate into the class the year after. It seems to me that part of the reason she is ahead could be that she's been getting some "home-schooling" already. I know it sounds crappy to hold her back in her learning, but she needs to learn the social skills right now more than she needs to leap ahead in math, etc.

So, my final answer: don't make any decisions yet. Wait until at least the end of the school year, because even the summer months can make a huge difference in things like social skills and maturity. Certainly, don't make any promises either way to your child,

 

[bluess]

Have you considered putting her into extra-curricular activities with other Ks? I've noticed a big jump in culture-accumulation and language skills since with put Blue2 in some after school activities. Our issue is not quite yours - Blue2 is adopted from another country. She has life skills for a 13-yr-old, but her understanding of culture and language don't match. They're being brought up to standard by being with other small fry.

In our case, the school suggested that she skip from K to 2nd. We nixed that idea after watching her over the summer, and are very glad we did. We currently have a successful, confident 1st grader. We would have had a failing 2nd grader.

You are the best advocate for your child.

 

[Wavicle]

PS I'm just curious: why did she start so early?

The reasons are many: First, there were 2 other kids within a couple houses on our street starting kindergarten this year. Second her pre-school teacher felt she was probably ready. Third, after working with her over the summer, I felt she had sufficient academic readiness for kindergarten. And finally the district's policy is that the child must be 5 before some cut-off date like Nov 1 or Dec 1 or something close to that, and her birthday is in late October.

Homeschool her. It's sooooo much better!

For instance?

Have you considered putting her into extra-curricular activities with other Ks? I've noticed a big jump in culture-accumulation and language skills since with put Blue2 in some after school activities. Our issue is not quite yours - Blue2 is adopted from another country. She has life skills for a 13-yr-old, but her understanding of culture and language don't match. They're being brought up to standard by being with other small fry.

The town I live in has a super-abundance of stay at home Moms and a high tax base, so within a 10 minute drive from us we have a gymnastics studio, dancing, music instruction, karate, zoo, a dozen parks with sports, a kid-friendly gym, a city water park, girlscouts/boyscouts and on and on. She has started ballet class and will likely start gymnastics soon. I'm not terribly concerned about socialization opportunities (but I do hope that she doesn't learn all that passive-agressive nonsense that flies generally rampant among moms in the area). There's a program at one school here that does a "teacher supervised homeschooling" program. The homeschooling community in our town is pretty fair sized and organizes group field trips.

 

[Wavicle]

and being no fan of "home school" (this doesn't exactly help in social developement)

Just curious, but why do you think this? I believed this for a good while, but all the studies I'd read about homeschooling tend to disagree with this assessment. Or maybe the studies are a bit skewed. I remember one which specifically measured socialization in young adults (18+ I believe) who were homeschooled. It's impossible to completely measure this 'objectively' but the findings generally showed that homeschooled kids tended to have superior social adjustment on average than those from normal schooling.

If I have time to google it, I'll post the link. I'm pretty sure I found the article the first time using google.

 

[Hindmost]

Background: This has changed over the past few years. Schools used to want students to enter school early and assumed they could educate and direct each student's progress. However, over the past 20 years or so, it was realized that emotional maturity plays a fairly big role in development. Schools are now tending to tell parents to keep students out of first grade until they have some more social skills and maturity. This was believeed to keep them from being isolated from other students and getting frustrated. Attention span can be a big factor in success and one year extra at a young age can make a big difference. However, it she is very smart, repeating kindergarden could also frustrate her. Recent evidence on repeating kindergarden shows that it hurts students academically.

I would not try to make a decision now...it is too early in the year. Big changes can occur over that time.

The trends I described are related to what I learned when I became a teacher. There are some very strong correlations in this area--both positive and negative. These articles seem reasonable.

http://www.education-world.com/a_issues/issues/issues023.shtml

http://www.naeyc.org/about/positions/PsUnacc.asp

Obviously, this is a general response. Details can matter greatly and someone with excellent skills in such evaluations would need to be trusted. But based on what I understand...I would override and let a student move into first grade unless there were some very strong reasons not too. But I don't have the skills or the details to evaluate your specific need. Spending time with the student would be important. I hope this helps.

glenn

 

[Kaylee]

It's pretty early in the year to be making decisions about next year's placement.

That's my thought as well. Almost to an unprofessional degree.

One thing maybe I should clarify is that yesterday's suggestion of holding her back did not hit me by suprise. The very first day when we went to pick my daughter up from Kindergarten her teacher pulled us aside and said "She's VERY young, it might be better if you guys pull her out now and have her start next year instead."

<SNIP>
<SNIP>

So we told the teacher that we would take a "let's wait and see" approach. For the next few weeks the teacher would ask "have you decided whether or not she is going to take Kindergarten once or twice yet?"

<SNIP>

I did feel like the teacher had made up her mind in the first week (or day)

Yes, it seems like the teacher made up her mind and may not be one of those people willing to acknowledge that she could be wrong.

I've no experience in negotiating with grade school teachers, but perhaps it would help to figure out a way to make this less personal and more objective. Perhaps a meeting where certain social goals are agreed upon?

Also to help the teacher get over being "wrong", some flattery couldn't hurt. Something like "Under your influence we feel our daughter has matured, blah, blah."

Shouldn't be necc., but sometimes its easier to indulge people's egos rather than insisting strictly upon the merits of a situation.

 

[Chris Haynes]

Just curious, but why do you think this? I believed this for a good while, but all the studies I'd read about homeschooling tend to disagree with this assessment. Or maybe the studies are a bit skewed. I remember one which specifically measured socialization in young adults (18+ I believe) who were homeschooled. It's impossible to completely measure this 'objectively' but the findings generally showed that homeschooled kids tended to have superior social adjustment on average than those from normal schooling.

If I have time to google it, I'll post the link. I'm pretty sure I found the article the first time using google.

Actually it depends on the parent. Some are good teachers... some are not. Homeschooling is big where I live. Some parents are well educated professionals, and I did meet one who was one of these (and was actually told by her mother that grandmother's babysitting service was shutting down if she had a 6th kid!). Our public school districts even have services for homeschoolers (including online classes, and opportunities for homeschoolers to participate in school bands).

Personally, if I had to homeschool my children I sincerely doubt they would have made it to bedtime alive. I kind of thing Bigred is somewhat like myself.

I personally think that the teacher is speaking too soon. Tell her you will wait to see if your daughter matures more by the end of next summer. Kids do change very quickly.

As background I present snapshots from my own experiences...

1) I have an October birthday and started kindergarten when I was still four years old (then moved twice, but I survived). While in 1st grade we moved again, and my dad was sent overseas... my deafness due to a severe infection went unnoticed. The school district that brought my deafness to the attention of my mother recommended I repeat 1st grade (by the way, I recovered and only have deficits with a few frequencies... particulary the buzzing fly on the windowsill frequency that drives hubby crazy). I made up by graduate from high school a year early (better to spend a year in elementary than the dungeon known as high school!).

2) Both of my sons were born the second week of September. The first one is learning disabled, so there is no reason to start him in kindergarten before he turned five, so he was six years old for most of kindergarten.

I did actually have the second son tested for early entrance into kindergarten, but he failed (in our district a child must be 5 years old on Aug. 31st to enter kindergarten... OR they can take a test for early entrance if their birthday is before Nov. 1st). When told there were nine people waiting to see the seals at the aquarium and five left, and then asked how many were left --- he kept asking where the other people went! Anyway, he started kindergarten on his 6th birthday, but during last summer took biology and the equivalent to 11th grade math in the local community college to advance up in high school (he is in the 10th grade taking chemistry and Pre-Calculus). This is the same child who was "not working to his potential" in 6th grade.

3) My youngest daughter had the kindergarten teacher everyone loved. I thought she was an unorganized flake. I placed my daughter's school picture payment in her mail box in the office and she LOST it! (well, it turned out it was sitting on her desk on picture day). Everyone else loved this teacher... but she never impressed me. But since this was my third kid, I knew how important kindergarten was to the rest of my daughter's school career. So I let it slide.

In other words... relax!

It is only kindergarten, and kids do grow fast!

 

[briandunning]

I value most the social education that my kids get from school. Effective interaction with peers is the most valuable skill anyone can have. I'd rather they're in a group of kids their own age, and I couldn't care less about the curriculum or their grades. It's elementary school, not post-doctorate work.

At our parent-techer conferences, my wife's all about the academic questions. My questions are "Do they have a lot of friends?" "Are they bullying or getting bullied?" "What types of kids are they hanging out with?"

If I were in your shoes, FWIW, I'd make the choice that puts my kids in the best social environment, and especially similar ages. Age makes a big difference in these early years.

 

[Beth]

For instance?

Why is homeschooling better? Well, there is the better academic and social learning they get at home with individualized instruction by a teacher who cares deeply about the child and her eventual success - i.e. becoming a competent adult able to live independently and achieve their personal goals. The single factor with the most impact on a child's eventual educational success is his/her parent's involvement in their schooling. It's hard for a parent to be more involved with their child's education than by homeschooling.

But the primary reason I became an ardent advocate of homeschooling was the improvement in the relationships that my husband and I have with our children. Homeschooling has enabled us to be better parents and to have a much closer relationship with our children than we have with our own parents. These closer family ties are the main reason I think homeschooling is so much better. I wouldn't want to do anything else now.

 

[Beth]

I value most the social education that my kids get from school.

You might want to consider what John Holt, founder of the unschooling movement had to say about the socialization kids get at school:

If there were no other reason to remove a child from school, the socialization they receive there would be reason enough.

 

[Wavicle]

As background I present snapshots from my own experiences...

Hmmm, okay. Thanks for the response. Although I think your argument better supports homeschooling than traditional schooling. In #1 it seems that nobody spent enough time with you to notice something was wrong. In #2 it seems that the school did not take the time to adequately assess your son. And in #3 it sounded like the teacher was well... disorganized.