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When Is Rape Rape?

Mudcat

Man of a Thousand Memes
Mudcat
Joined
Apr 6, 2011
Messages
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This is a subject of a debate I had here on campus today during a social justice fair. When is rape rape? According to her it's anytime a woman doesn't specifically say "Yes" to sex with a man, which causes me to question the information she received during a class about women's rights.

My objection is raised because two important facts.

  1. Not all rapists are men.
  2. Not all victims are women.

So here is the scenario I gave her, in these specific words:

You (the woman in question) and I met at a party for a mutual friend, being held because it's their birthday or they're retiring or for whatever reason. We decide to get together at your place at your suggestion and we have consensual sex after you said yes. The day after you have regrets and accuse me of rape. Is it rape or buyers remorse? Did I really do something worth destroying my life, career, and reputation over? When is rape rape?​

What is this madness? Do men now need to go around with consent forms just to cover their asses?
 
Mudcat said:
This is a subject of a debate I had here on campus today during a social justice fair. When is rape rape? According to her it's anytime a woman doesn't specifically say "Yes" to sex with a man, which causes me to question the information she received during a class about women's rights.

My objection is raised because two important facts.

  1. Not all rapists are men.
  2. Not all victims are women.

So here is the scenario I gave her, in these specific words:

You (the woman in question) and I met at a party for a mutual friend, being held because it's their birthday or they're retiring or for whatever reason. We decide to get together at your place at your suggestion and we have consensual sex after you said yes. The day after you have regrets and accuse me of rape. Is it rape or buyers remorse? Did I really do something worth destroying my life, career, and reputation over? When is rape rape?​

What is this madness? Do men now need to go around with consent forms just to cover their asses?
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Maybe I'm missing something. But your scenario is specifically covered in the girls response to you in your conversation. Bolded the important words. In other words, it's not rape.

Buyers remorse? Well that's a different can of worms and I have no meaningful things to say about that difficult circumstance.
 
I don't think that your example differs from the definition given by the person that you were debating, Mudcat.
I'd agree with your objections, though and probably add quite a few more.
It can still be rape if the woman verbally consents if her ability to give that consent is compromised, for example.
 
Rape can be a very difficult crime to prove since usually there are only two witnesses one of which says 'that a rape did happen' and the other saying 'that a rape did not happen'. As a result, there have been people convicted of rape who should not have been convicted of rape, and there are other people who should have been convicted of rape, but who were not convicted of rape.

In any case, if you are really that worried about the issue, then the best thing to do is be rather careful about who you get sexually involved with and the circumstances at the time in question. Or put another way, think with your big head as opposed to thinking with your little head.
 
Dissolution said:
I don't think that your example differs from the definition given by the person that you were debating, Mudcat.
I'd agree with your objections, though and probably add quite a few more.
It can still be rape if the woman verbally consents if her ability to give that consent is compromised, for example.
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I didn't insert alcoholic inebriation for precisely that reason. Yes, rape happens. Yes, rape is a heinous crime. Yes, the rapists should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. But let's not pretend that false allegations of rape doesn't ruin lives.

Her definition of 'rape' isn't helpful and does nothing to promote social justice, however.
 
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Consent can be both verbal and behavioural. Enthusiastically participating in sex is consent.

Other than that, your OP seems to be a mess of different ideas all thrown together, so its difficult to respond to them.

ETA. If you always make sure that the person you are sleeping with actually wants to have sex, and that they are aware of their surroundings and what is happening, you are never going to accidentally rape someone.
 
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Mudcat said:
This is a subject of a debate I had here on campus today during a social justice fair. When is rape rape? According to her it's anytime a woman doesn't specifically say "Yes" to sex with a man, which causes me to question the information she received during a class about women's rights.

My objection is raised because two important facts.

  1. Not all rapists are men.
  2. Not all victims are women.

So here is the scenario I gave her, in these specific words:

You (the woman in question) and I met at a party for a mutual friend, being held because it's their birthday or they're retiring or for whatever reason. We decide to get together at your place at your suggestion and we have consensual sex after you said yes. The day after you have regrets and accuse me of rape. Is it rape or buyers remorse? Did I really do something worth destroying my life, career, and reputation over? When is rape rape?​

What is this madness? Do men now need to go around with consent forms just to cover their asses?
Click to expand...

Are you talking about legitimate rape or the other kind?
 
On the issue of intoxication:

In R v Bree [2007] EWCA 256, the Court of Appeal explored the issue of capacity and consent, stating that, if, through drink, or for any other reason, a complainant had temporarily lost her capacity to choose whether to have sexual intercourse, she was not consenting, and subject to the defendant's state of mind, if intercourse took place, that would be rape. However, where a complainant had voluntarily consumed substantial quantities of alcohol, but nevertheless remained capable of choosing whether to have intercourse, and agreed to do so, that would not be rape. Further, they identified that capacity to consent may evaporate well before a complainant becomes unconscious. Whether this is so or not, however, depends on the facts of the case.

In cases similar to Bree, prosecutors should carefully consider whether the complainant has the capacity to consent, and ensure that the instructed advocate presents the Crown's case on this basis and, if necessary, reminds the trial judge of the need to assist the jury with the meaning of capacity.

Prosecutors and investigators should consider whether supporting evidence is available to demonstrate that the complainant was so intoxicated that he/she had lost their capacity to consent. For example, evidence from friends, taxi drivers and forensic physicians describing the complainant's intoxicated state may support the prosecution case. In addition, it may be possible to obtain expert evidence in respect of the effects of alcohol/drugs and the effects if they are taken together. Consideration should be given to obtaining an expert's back calculation or the opinion of an expert in human pharmacology in relation to the complainant's level of alcohol/ drugs at the time of the incident.
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http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/consent/#a03
 
Oh by the way, her response to "Is this rape?" was yes. So even after consenting to sex, rape is rape if the woman says it's rape.

Yeah, that promotes social justice alright. :rolleyes:

Makes me wonder just what the hell they're teaching in that class.
 
Mudcat said:
What else would have added, by the way?
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A variety of things, a number of which Professor Yaffle has suggested and one that you pointed out.

Consent doesn't have to be verbal and a variety of conditions (intoxication, age, mental capacity, threats, etc.) can render it moot.
Things like a large power differential are important, too.
 
Mudcat said:
This is a subject of a debate I had here on campus today during a social justice fair. When is rape rape? According to her it's anytime a woman doesn't specifically say "Yes" to sex with a man, which causes me to question the information she received during a class about women's rights.

My objection is raised because two important facts.

  1. Not all rapists are men.
  2. Not all victims are women.

So here is the scenario I gave her, in these specific words:

You (the woman in question) and I met at a party for a mutual friend, being held because it's their birthday or they're retiring or for whatever reason. We decide to get together at your place at your suggestion and we have consensual sex after you said yes. The day after you have regrets and accuse me of rape. Is it rape or buyers remorse? Did I really do something worth destroying my life, career, and reputation over? When is rape rape?​

What is this madness? Do men now need to go around with consent forms just to cover their asses?
Click to expand...


Ask her the same question, but this time make both participants women and have both change their so-called minds ... :rolleyes:
 
Mudcat said:
Oh by the way, her response to "Is this rape?" was yes. So even after consenting to sex, rape is rape if the woman says it's rape.

Yeah, that promotes social justice alright. :rolleyes:

Makes me wonder just what the hell they're teaching in that class.
Click to expand...

That's just nonsensical.
If somebody were to sell a phone on Ebay and then decide that they actually made a poor choice, then the buyer doesn't suddenly become a thief.
Somebody regretting their choice of holiday destination doesn't miraculously turn the booking agent into a people trafficker.

Perhaps you could find out what their source material is or sit in on a class?
It could be educational, though possibly not in the way that it's intended to be.
 
Mudcat said:
Oh by the way, her response to "Is this rape?" was yes. So even after consenting to sex, rape is rape if the woman says it's rape.

Yeah, that promotes social justice alright. :rolleyes:

Makes me wonder just what the hell they're teaching in that class.
Click to expand...

Honestly, if that was her definition, then she's got some serious hangups. So in addition to Yaffle's advice, I'd add "don't sleep with crazy people".
 
balrog666 said:
Ask her the same question, but this time make both participants women and have both change their so-called minds ... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

According to the definition in the OP, women can't rape anyone.
It doesn't appear that men can rape other men either, somewhat bizarrely.
 
As to your issue about gender, I don't know about all jurisdictions, but in the UK the crime of rape specifically refers to penetration (oral/anal/vaginal) either with the penis or with an object. This means that a woman forcing a man to have sex with her wouldn't come under "rape" (unless she used some form of implement) but would still be a crime - a serious sexual assault. In common parlance though, it would be equated to rape.
 
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