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What's wrong with this rant? Evolution vs. Creation

Tony

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Mar 5, 2003
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http://www.geocities.com/astraeaaradia/creationevolution.html


Creation vs. evolution is a subject I've been asked about more often than any other. I'm just now getting around to explaining my own views, basically because I knew I'd actually have to take a little time to type out my explanation, and I'm always pressed for time! With most other subjects, I usually just jump on and type out my views in five or ten minutes and think, if nobody likes my opinion, who cares? But this subject is debated so often that I want to make sure my thoughts are clear and I'm able to project them properly. I actually wrote an article for another website two years ago and most of this information runs exactly parallel with it, with a bit of spontaneous thought added here and there. My beliefs really have not changed regarding this subject.

First of all, I don't believe in the theory of evolution. Not Darwin's theory, anyway. Whether or not certain plants, animals, etc., have evolved in some way over the years, I dont' actually know and it isn't really a concern of mine at this point. But, as for Darwin's theory, I think it's a load of crap. My father has worked in the field of science (archeology, marine biology) for some twenty-odd years, so I've had a lot of opportunities to research and develop my own views on this theory. I was taught from an early age that every idea should be contested and researched- not just taken as fact. I was taught that simply hearing one side of a story cannot be sufficient reason to believe anything. On the other hand, I've also been taught that some of the most intelligent and some of the wisest people who have ever lived were wise because of their faith. So, I've taken all these things into consideration while developing my opinions of creation and evolution.

The most significant problem (for me) with Darwin's theory of evolution, is the problem of genetic improbability. Even on a theoretical level, it does not seem that any species could possibly mutate in such drastic ways in the time available (supposedly billions of years). According to most scientists, the minimum number of mutations that are necessary for a new structure in a species is five. But, to add to that, each of these mutations must be of the right type and also affect five genes that are functionally related. Mutations of any type occur once in every 100,000 gene replications (but many scientists believe even far less frequently). If we are to assume that the first living organism had 10,000 genes, which is the same number as E. coli, one mutation would exist for every 10 cells. Add to that, the fact that only approximately one out of every 1,000 mutations is non-harmful (does not cause death or serious functional problems). In this case, there would be only 1 non-harmful mutation for every 10,000 cells. The odds that this mutation would even effect a particular gene is one in 10,000. With that in mind, there must be a population of 100,000,000 genes in order to have a non-harmful mutation of a specific gene.

The odds of a singe cell possessing non-harmful mutations of five specific functionally related genes is beyond astronomical. If one-hundred trillion bacteria were produced every SECOND for five billion years, the resulting population would still be only 1/1,000,000,000 of what is needed for a non-harmful mutation of a species. And these are only the odds of getting a non-harmful mutation. In order for a new structure to be produced, all these mutations must integrate and function perfectly with one another. The odds of this have been computed to be 1 in ten to the three-hundred thousanth power. In other words, evolution is a scientific improbability. To me it's beyond that- it's basically impossible.

No matter how much an organism changes, it is still the same organism as when it started. Organisms are genetically altered by scientists on a regular basis, and are even said to be "drastically altered," but in the end, they still remain the same type of organism. Sheep do not become birds, reptiles do not become dogs, dogs do not become horses, etc. Science today says it is not possible for a species to change drastically enough to become a completely different species. Yet, people are willing to believe that they HAVE changed drastically over the period of so many years.

I know that is probably a bit hard to follow, but it does make absolute sense. This is information that I've read in tons of books, researched myself, and also have heard from scientists in college, who worked with my father, and so on. Most scientists that I have met will admit that the theory of evolution is scientifically improbable and basically impossible. But, their reason for accepting it is because there is no other scientific explanation as to where we all came from. Stupid reason to accept something, in my opinion, but I'm not a scientist and don't feel pressured to believe such nonsense.

Some people ask me, "Your dad is a scientist, what about all those skeletal remains of 'prehistoric man' that have been found?" Well, there actually has never been proof that we have evolved from any of these supposed races of humans. The skeletal remains that have been found were only assumed by scientists to be of races of man that eventually evolved. There is no proof that this is even possible. The skulls and other skeletal parts of many men today are extremely different from one another. Compare the skull of an Asian man with that of an African man. Compare the skull of a Scottish man with that of a Native American. Compare a skull of a man with down-syndrome to one without. Or compare my skull to my neighbor's! We're all physically different, it's a fact. Difference in skeletal appearance is not grounds for assumtion that humans have evolved from apes or "ape-like" men of the past.
 
For one that guy has no concept for neutral genetic changes.

And he is using strawman version of evolution.




ps. why isn't there a 'shakes head' smilie?
 
His mutation rates are way off. DNA mutates at a rate of about one in a million. That translates into 3,500 mistakes for every cell reproduced (for a human). Also, there are other mechanisms of genetic change than just a simple gene mutation. Research is beginning to show that much larger genetic mechanisms, such as transposable elements (transposons), may have played a large role in quick, drastic genetic change (quick & drastic from an evolutionary stand point)
 
I only have time to respond to one line, so I'll go with this one!
On the other hand, I've also been taught that some of the most intelligent and some of the wisest people who have ever lived were wise because of their faith.

"some" could be .00456 percent. What are we talking here?

Also, is there a test to determine if the quantity of your wisdom is correlated to the level of your faith? If not, anyone want to try to design a unbiased method of testing this?
 
Now, now. No need to get personal
:D :D
AND ANOTHER THING!
What he cites as the mutation rate of DNA during Replication is wrong. And, his mechanisms of genetic variation are too narrow and oversimplified.
 
Thanks Paul.
I was basing the number on a mutation rate of 1x10^6 and a human genome of 3.5x10^9 nucleotides. I could be wrong. The mutation rate could be for E.Coli for all I know.

In any event, the OP's premise is that genetic processes are too slow to account for the evolutionary proccess. This is right out of the Fundamentalist Handbook. I contend this premise is wrong.
 
Some people ask me, "Your dad is a scientist, what about all those skeletal remains of 'prehistoric man' that have been found?" Well, there actually has never been proof that we have evolved from any of these supposed races of humans. The skeletal remains that have been found were only assumed by scientists to be of races of man that eventually evolved. There is no proof that this is even possible. The skulls and other skeletal parts of many men today are extremely different from one another. Compare the skull of an Asian man with that of an African man. Compare the skull of a Scottish man with that of a Native American. Compare a skull of a man with down-syndrome to one without. Or compare my skull to my neighbor's! We're all physically different, it's a fact. Difference in skeletal appearance is not grounds for assumtion that humans have evolved from apes or "ape-like" men of the past.
People should be saying:
"Your dad is a scientist? Didn't he teach you anything about fossils or skeletal remains? Does he think scientists just date things by pulling figures from thin air?
Your dad is a scientist? But he doesn't know that carbon-14 dating is perfectly accurate method for up to about 70,000 years in the past?
Your dad is a scientist and he doesn't know how to use the words 'proof' versus 'evidence'?
Your dad is a scientist, but he thinks that scientists could be confusing neanderthal man remains with a Scottish person?
Your dad is a scientist? Of what? Hamburgerology?"

I know that is probably a bit hard to follow, but it does make absolute sense. This is information that I've read in tons of books, researched myself, and also have heard from scientists in college, who worked with my father, and so on. Most scientists that I have met will admit that the theory of evolution is scientifically improbable and basically impossible. But, their reason for accepting it is because there is no other scientific explanation as to where we all came from. Stupid reason to accept something, in my opinion, but I'm not a scientist and don't feel pressured to believe such nonsense.
What a moron.
Yes scientist love to believe in things they think are impossible, but as there's no other explanation, what the hell.
So if evolution is imopossible then why choose it to believe in? There's any number of impossible methods to believe in - why not pick one a bit more fun?
I hear the flying elves theory of evolution is becoming popular too.

Yes, it would be a "Stupid reason to accept something", which is why no-one outside this fools fevered imagination does it.

As Sherlock Holmes once put it "Once you have ruled out the impossible, you should also rule out the improbable too and believe any old thing you like."
 
Well 'Melissa' also adds her own 'scientific' opinion:

Hearing and seeing for myself how careless scientists are with their supposed "theories" has driven me to search for possibilities for our existence that are actually rational.

So, that leads me to creation, I guess. Yes, I believe creation is a possibility (even a probability)

I really hate this person. It's a sort of flat, dull lifeless hate, but its there nonetheless.

To watch science being twisted, lied about and distorted to bolster an opinion that was held from the outset is so annoying.


Edited to add: Check out her other wacky beliefs.
She's a 'pagan'! A pagan creationist? Is that even possible?
 
Well, I'd have a couple of questions for this guy.
Science today says it is not possible for a species to change drastically enough to become a completely different species.
If you will show me where "science today says" that, then I shall stop believing that species have evolved. Perhaps you could give me some references?
Most scientists that I have met will admit that the theory of evolution is scientifically improbable and basically impossible. But, their reason for accepting it is because there is no other scientific explanation as to where we all came from.

Stupid reason to accept something, in my opinion, but I'm not a scientist and don't feel pressured to believe such nonsense.
Yes, it does seem strange --- stupid indeed --- that scientists could be "pressured into believing" something they say is "impossible" and which "science today says" is "not possible". Very stupid. I should say --- unbelievable. But perhaps you could quote some of these "scientists" who say that evolution is "basically impossible"?

Yes, it's that old put-up/shut-up dichotomy. Crude, but effective.
 
My daddy's a pilot. Therefore I know more about flying airplanes than all the other airline pilots, who don't believe in lift anyway (at least not Bernoulli's lift), but don't have any other explaination for how the plane stays up so they just pretend to accept it.

Faith made me wise. Imagine what a bump on the head would do for me!
 
Those who say they don't believe in evolution because they find it so improbable are those without sufficient imagination to conduct the scientific research that shows why evolutionary theories provide the best explanation for the biodiversity we see today.
 
quote:
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Science today says it is not possible for a species to change drastically enough to become a completely different species.
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Dr Adequate said:

If you will show me where "science today says" that, then I shall stop believing that species have evolved. Perhaps you could give me some references?.

I'd say the quote refers to the fact that anything resembling what a non-geneticist would say is a 'new species' has never been directly observed in the lab.

All those damn fruit fly mutations -- and still flies, don't 'ya know?
 
So, hammy, you are in fact unable to show me where "science today says it is not possible for a species to change drastically enough to become a completely different species."

This is, of course, because "science today" says that this happens, not that it's impossible.

And you would have gotten away with it too...
 
hammegk said:
I'd say the quote refers to the fact that anything resembling what a non-geneticist would say is a 'new species' has never been directly observed in the lab.

All those damn fruit fly mutations -- and still flies, don't 'ya know?

Pray tell me, who are more qualified than a geneticist to determine whether or not it's different species we're talking about? After all, they are the one that has the facts about the genetic structure.

And what will the evolutionary thory predict: That a fly that speciates will instantly be non-fly species, or that there will take a lot of speciations before would eventually start to get something that could classified as something else than a fly? And is what is actually happening consistent with the predictions?

If you actually know about the real evolutionary theory (and not your strawman version you have so far presented), you should be able to answer these questions.
 

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