What's Natural ?

[Just thinking]

Perhaps this has come up before, but I am interested in hearing what some might think when someone makes the accusation that drilling for oil in the arctic, clearing trees in Brazil, hunting a species to extinction, etc. is not natural and is therefore harmful to the environment and should be avoided at all costs.

Now, before you go and think that I'm about to run off and set fire to the tall redwoods out in California, let me assure you it is only a mental exersise in questioning the concept of natural, or better still, that which is not natural. Since we evolved on this planet as did every other animal, I fail to see how anything we do can be considered not natural. To me, a car is every bit as natural to this planet as is a bird's nest. True, we have the ability to do things on a scale unlike any other species, but we still are indigeneous to this planet. And even if we ventured into space and took over another world, would that be unnatural? I'm sure that no animal, no matter how destructive its behaviour is, considers itself to be in violation of natural activity. And no doubt, neither do we (regarding the animal).

So what exactly is it that makes some things humans do wrong in the sense of natural behaviour?

 

[Batman Jr.]

Perhaps this has come up before, but I am interested in hearing what some might think when someone makes the accusation that drilling for oil in the arctic, clearing trees in Brazil, hunting a species to extinction, etc. is not natural and is therefore harmful to the environment and should be avoided at all costs.

Now, before you go and think that I'm about to run off and set fire to the tall redwoods out in California, let me assure you it is only a mental exersise in questioning the concept of natural, or better still, that which is not natural. Since we evolved on this planet as did every other animal, I fail to see how anything we do can be considered not natural. To me, a car is every bit as natural to this planet as is a bird's nest. True, we have the ability to do things on a scale unlike any other species, but we still are indigeneous to this planet. And even if we ventured into space and took over another world, would that be unnatural? I'm sure that no animal, no matter how destructive its behaviour is, considers itself to be in violation of natural activity. And no doubt, neither do we (regarding the animal).

So what exactly is it that makes some things humans do wrong in the sense of natural behaviour?

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment and have posited the same question to myself on numerous occasions before. I think the fallacious "interfering with nature" argument most likely arose out of our instincts to exalt ourselves above all other matter of life on this planet.

However, I'm not insinuating that people ought to disrespect the environment, because the job of keeping our surroundings hospitable doesn't remain relevant in society today solely based upon the warnings people foolishly heed from proponents of the nonexistent "debasement of nature" predicament.

 

[pupdog]

Reminds me of when some people got upset because a planned highway extension called for filling in a portion of an old canal. But if there was a plan to dig a new canal, the same folks would probably have been just as upset.

When the Corps of Engineers builds a dam, thats bad.
When beavers build a dam, that's natural.

"Natural" is a great word to put on your product's package.
Remedies that are natural can't possibly have adverse side effects.

I guess "natural" has more to do with wishful thinking than with the real stte of the world.

 

[thatguywhojuggles]

It's all about the creation myth.

 

[farmermike]

"Natural" is a great word to put on your product's package.
Remedies that are natural can't possibly have adverse side effects.

I guess "natural" has more to do with wishful thinking than with the real stte of the world.

Hey,wasn't it natural foods and remedies that allowed previous civilizations to have lifespans well into their forties?

 

[Dancing David]

Obviously a human skyscraper is as natural as a behive, the question is one of cost benefit, if the dam built by humans has a minimal impact on the eco system or has major benefit for humans, then you have cost benefit.

There is little price considered for the eco system unfortunately, so the impact of human behaviors is often not considered. Such as the impact farmers have on the wtershed, what they do naturaly makes it difficult for some species to survive. One cost that could be dealt with by easy measures with little cost to the farmers.

 

[CFLarsen]

Hey,wasn't it natural foods and remedies that allowed previous civilizations to have lifespans well into their forties?

Twenties.

We reached the advanced age of mid-40's around 1900.

If not for science, I'd probably be dead by now.

 

[farmermike]

Twenties.

We reached the advanced age of mid-40's around 1900.

If not for science, I'd probably be dead by now.

oops,I guess I was referring to the wrong "good old days".

 

[farmermike]

Obviously a human skyscraper is as natural as a behive, the question is one of cost benefit, if the dam built by humans has a minimal impact on the eco system or has major benefit for humans, then you have cost benefit.

There is little price considered for the eco system unfortunately, so the impact of human behaviors is often not considered. Such as the impact farmers have on the wtershed, what they do naturaly makes it difficult for some species to survive. One cost that could be dealt with by easy measures with little cost to the farmers.

A couple of years ago beavers moved into my neighborhood,built this mega dam flooding some of my fields.This encroachment on my territory disrupted "my ecosystem"enough that I had them trapped and their dam dug out with an excavator.I felt bad about it,but I realized that those little buggers were going about their business tax free.

 

[Zep]

A couple of years ago beavers moved into my neighborhood,built this mega dam flooding some of my fields.This encroachment on my territory disrupted "my ecosystem"enough that I had them trapped and their dam dug out with an excavator.I felt bad about it,but I realized that those little buggers were going about their business tax free.

"Natural" would be finding somewhere you really need a lake yourself, and then allowing beavers to build the dam for you. Win-win.

 

[H'ethetheth]

The rationalist in me says: Anything anyone or anything does is natural.
The social and moral human being in me says: Doing things that cause much harm to ecosystems, groups of organisms, or even individual organisms, could be unwise in that it may in the future have repercussions that harm nice people and animals just like me. However the last me is also the one that eats innocent beans, lettuce and chickens.

 

[sackett]

Natural and unnatural created he them

There's nothing unnatural at all about man turning the world into his midden. That's the whole problem.

What's unnatural, in my estimation, is the mind of the man who can't see the ugliness of what he does to the world.

 

[farmermike]

"Natural" would be finding somewhere you really need a lake yourself, and then allowing beavers to build the dam for you. Win-win.

Or natural could be trapping them myself,using their pelts to make clothing and then roasting the critters for supper

 

[farmermike]

Re: Natural and unnatural created he them

There's nothing unnatural at all about man turning the world into his midden. That's the whole problem.

What's unnatural, in my estimation, is the mind of the man who can't see the ugliness of what he does to the world.

So far humans have been pretty good at staying ahead of all the checks and balances that mother nature has thrown our way.probably the most natural thing would be yeast in a fermentation vat,multiplying themselves into extintion through the poisoning of their environment.

 

[Just thinking]

Thank you all for your input.

What would be the difference (in being natural) if lightning strikes some trees in a dry forrest causing thousands of acres of damage as opposed to someone deliberately setting fire to them? True, the individual has the 'choice' of doing it or not, but I don't see either one being more natural than the other. (No, I am not endorsing such behavior.)

 

[H'ethetheth]

I agree with you, except that "natural" has become a somewhat morally loaded (I'm not sure if that's proper English) term. There is a long tradition of seeing ourselves not as a part of nature, but as the caretakers of it which to me is fairly arrogant.
However, ethics is a good thing I believe and may stop us from prematurely extinguishing ourselves.

 

[pupdog]

So far humans have been pretty good at staying ahead of all the checks and balances that mother nature has thrown our way.probably the most natural thing would be yeast in a fermentation vat,multiplying themselves into extintion through the poisoning of their environment.

Wasn't this an image in Jack London's The Sea Wolf (but applied as a view of humankind)?

 

[farmermike]

Wasn't this an image in Jack London's The Sea Wolf (but applied as a view of humankind)?

I have to be honest I didn't catch the movie,But I'll try and get the book when it comes out.Seriously though I did think of it as original ,but how could it be?

 

[Soapy Sam]

Just thinking- The answer to your question is context dependant.

To the burned trees , there is no difference.

To the idiot who started the fire, there is. He's going to jail , for a start.

The existence of natural disasters is no justification for causing artificial ones. Especially if I'm in the area.

 

[Atlas]

Re: Re: What's Natural ?

Thank you all for your input.

What would be the difference (in being natural) if lightning strikes some trees in a dry forrest causing thousands of acres of damage as opposed to someone deliberately setting fire to them?

It's certainly natural for trees to burn. And judging from the Amazon, if there is an incentive, it's natural for man to burn them down.

Likewise to prevent really big fires, it's natural for man to set controlled fires. All that's necessary for man is that he has identified it as a good idea.

Natural is an all-purpose word.