What Price Energy Independence?

BPSCG

Penultimate Amazing
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I posted this on the book club forum, under Michael Scheuer's Imperial Hubris, but thought it was worth a discussion on its own merits. You need not have read the book to have something to contribute to this.

Scheuer maintains that if we want to win the global jihad, one of the things we need to do is become energy-independent. That way, we would no longer have to be in bed with corrupt, repressive, Muslim oil tyrannies, and ObL would have less reason to want to kill us.

Scheuer proposes, among other things, a return to building nuclear power plants.

My question was, where does the tree-hugger contingent stand on this issue? Is national security a good enough reason to abandon their opposition to nuclear power? Is it a good enough reason to abandon their opposition to drilling in the ANWR?
 
Most environmentalists oppose nuclear power. However, there are some who are more worried about CO2 than nuclear waste. These people are actually working with governments and the nuclear industry to build safer reactors.

The source for this is the Economist ;) I do not have a link handy.

CBL
 
We will never be self-sufficient. Not only do we get our energy resources from other countries, but many other natural resources as well.

Shall we give up bananas, too?
 
Take a look at this for an example of what I'm talking about.

What do we use Columbium for? Strontium? Manganese?

Can we do without them?

Where do we get them from? Are their governments all kinder, gentler nations?
 
Aw geez. Every time I think about picking up that guys book someone quotes me another reason not to.

First things first. Yes, we should build more nuclear power.

However, more nuclear power has bupkes to do with energy independence at this time. The reason is that oil is a trivial component of electricty production. It's about 7% worldwide capacity and much less than that here in the US. 18% of US electricity is gas-generated, but we're currently gas self-sufficient or nearly so (depending on season and a couple of other things). FWIIW, that 18% is way up recently and is still less than the 20% we get from nuclear. Much of that capacity is currently mothballed because of high gas prices. In the US, the big thing is coal, and we've got loads of it.

We use oil for transportation, industrial uses and home heating. In order for nuclear power to contribute meaningfully to domestic energy independence not only must many (MANY) more plants be built but there must also occur some combination of the following:

1) Large-scale adoption of electric vehicles as a substitute for current (heh) vehicles which run on gasoline or diesel.

2) Wholesale adoption of electric heating by US consumers in the mid-Atlantic and northeast (currently, consumers there are switching out oil heat for gas). As it happens, generating heat way off in some power plant, using turbines to convert it to electricty, shipping it hundreds of miles and then merely converting it back to heat is a piss-poor way to use resources. I suppose one could argue that nuclear can generate electricty which would displace gas which then could be used for home heating, but again the pace of consumer adoption of gas heat would have to increase significantly.

3) Massive improvement in the quality and capacity of the nation's electrical grid, which improvement would have to completely ignore the desires of individual consumers and benefit industry such that they'd be incented to stop producing their own power on-site and switch to electricity supplied from the (presumably nuclear-powered) grid. We're talking pathway diversity, source diversity, the whole bit -- basically a SONET ring of electricty for large industrial users.
 
BPSCG said:

My question was, where does the tree-hugger contingent stand on this issue? Is national security a good enough reason to abandon their opposition to nuclear power? Is it a good enough reason to abandon their opposition to drilling in the ANWR?

Environmentalists are largely opposed to nuclear power...On pretty shaky grounds most of the time. There are legitimate issues (such as problems of waste storage), but the enviro attitude on nukes is more alarmist than anything else.

This lefty, for one, has no major beef with building new reactors. Lessons have been learned...Three Mile Island and Chernobyl gave everyone a good, solid look at where nuclear fission can go wrong. Since the time of those accidents, though, there's a s***load of regs on the books to ensure that nuclear power is as safe as humanly possible.

Oil is not produced nearly as fast as we use it; therefore, at some point there's going to be a crunch. Some estimates put that in the relatively near future (< 50 years). Drilling in the ANWR will ruin the environment there, pretty much for good--and how much good it will do is questionable. For long-term benefit, I think fusion is the way to go. Until we can manage a stable, ongoing fusion reaction, though, fission seems the best medium-term alternative.

Plus look at it from a futures standpoint. The price of oil changes, literally, every day--based on availability, production, political situations, and the flight pattern of a butterfly in Beijing. Unstable situations lead to problems, as we discovered in the 1970s. Moving to a more nuclear alternative would stabilize this somewhat.
 
Originally posted by Luke T.
We will never be self-sufficient. Not only do we get our energy resources from other countries, but many other natural resources as well.
The problem is that oil is currently most easily extracted by a few tyrannies which gives them too much power.

Oil demand does not vary much with price changes and it requires several years to prepare for new production. The oil tyrannies are inherently unstable which leads to temporary supply fluctuations. This means that prices alternately skyrocket and crash. We do not need to be self sufficient, we just need to have a method to keep energy prices moderate regardless of what happens in the Middle East.

Some combination of conservation and switching to more reliable energy supplies would do this. Unfortunately, the Saudis can undercut the price of any alternative energy which makes any major investment (e.g. nuclear energy) a very dicey economic proposition.

CBL
 
Some issues pit environmentalists vs environmentalists.

For example theres a pitch to put windmills out in Nantucket sound. Pro: Clean Wind Power. Con: Putting up windmills in a pristine area. Tree huggers are on both sides.
 
Tmy said:
Some issues pit environmentalists vs environmentalists.

For example theres a pitch to put windmills out in Nantucket sound. Pro: Clean Wind Power. Con: Putting up windmills in a pristine area. Tree huggers are on both sides.
Indeed, there is no "free energy". Everything has a cost. As a card-carrying environmentalist (I have a degree in environmental biology) as well as a card-carrying environmental rapist (I now work for an oil company) I realize that there is a balance. Even solar energy comes with a price tag. Solar cell manufacture spits out PCBs like almost nothing else. "Environmentalists" often disagree because they see one downside, but not another. Also, there are a heck of a lot of environmentalists out there who are very ignorant of the environment, and only thinking of "natural beauty". Others are nothing more than NIMBYs (Not In My Back Yard) who don't give a flying fornication about pollution in other countries and how it affects the global ecosystem.

The best way to gain "energy independence" is one that is personally and economically uncomfortable, and that is to use a lot less of it. There are a lot of ways to do this, but we won't like them. However, as fuel becomes scarcer and more expensive, I expect we'll see a lot of creative solutions. One that I kind of like is the idea of having large lighter-than-air airships running slow-moving vacations, sort of like the sea cruises we have now, but a whole lot more fuel-efficient.

So if the question of this topic is "what price", then I wonder what the answers of people are about what they would be willing to give up.
 
BPSCG said:
I posted this on the book club forum, under Michael Scheuer's Imperial Hubris, but thought it was worth a discussion on its own merits. You need not have read the book to have something to contribute to this.

Scheuer maintains that if we want to win the global jihad, one of the things we need to do is become energy-independent. That way, we would no longer have to be in bed with corrupt, repressive, Muslim oil tyrannies, and ObL would have less reason to want to kill us.

Scheuer proposes, among other things, a return to building nuclear power plants.

My question was, where does the tree-hugger contingent stand on this issue? Is national security a good enough reason to abandon their opposition to nuclear power? Is it a good enough reason to abandon their opposition to drilling in the ANWR?
I love the way you reduce the whole issue to "tree-hugging." It's so . . . charming.

What is alarming about nuclear fission as a power source is that it's a very messy and expensive way to boil water. You can get a whole herd of technical experts in here to ramble on and on about efficiencies and reduced risks, but at the end of the day if a nuclear power plant goes up in smoke, we know for a fact that a significant swath of land will be rendered almost permanently uninhabitable.

I have to explain things to people in terms of risk and reward all the time, as I work with large computer networks. With 13,000 variables, sometimes it's not possible to predict exactly what the outcome of an action will be, so I have to draw a picture of the risk vs. the reward. If you spend the time that the link above demands thinking about the risk, you can then evaluate where that risk stands in relation to the reward.

Sure, you can argue Chernobyl was run by a bunch of communist-state boobies -- a state that was infamous for building one block of apartments with balconies, and a neighboring block with balcony doors, but looking at the recent safety record of our own free-market, private-owned chemical refineries (which seem to be igniting with increasing frequency) it's hard to say that I feel safer with the "magic of the market" at the controls of nuclear power plants. I was 9 years old when Three Mile Island went up, and along with it the entire U.S. nuclear industry. My skepticism about the nuclear industry isn't so much based around any environmentalist tendancies -- it's just a simple distrust that people with little more than the bottom line on their minds will think of things like the safety of the community in which they are situated.

Add this to the fact that the entire known supply of fissionable material could power the world for a mere 25 years, I think, and I don't see nuclear fission power as a worthy investment in infrastructure.

I was heartened by recent reports that a nuclear fusion reactor was being attempted. The report mentioned that it would likely be 50 years before fusion was viable economically, but I'm willing to bet that the only reason the time period is so long is that our society lacks the will to commit the resources. If we needed fusion in 10 years, we could probably have it.

Nuclear fission is just a stopgap on the path to renewable, sustainable energy. It's a messy side road at that, and the reward for taking that road seems miniscule and entirely out of proportion to the tremendous risk of depopulating a huge area of our country. Nuclear plants will be likely located near the cities they serve, and the economic catastrophe of having to evacuate, for example, Los Angeles or New York or Chicago for the next 600-1000 years due to some screw-up by a Homer Simpson is quite beyond contemplation in my opinion.
 
Almost forgot:

BPSCG said:
Is it a good enough reason to abandon their opposition to drilling in the ANWR?

A friend of my parents' back in the good ol' 1980's, when smoking was cool, one time commented that she had started smoking menthol in an effort to quit. However some small crack of reason broke through when she commented that she was now addicted to nicotine and menthol.

I guess another way to put it would be you don't break your dependence on alcohol by switching from Miller Lite to Sam Adams beer. You're still drinking.

If we are to get off the sauce, we have to make it economically unpleasant to continue. We don't have enough sauce in ANWAR to even begin to free us of the Saudis. We would only manage to prolong the agony of withdrawal. Right now hybrid cars are in vogue and SUV's are out because gas is more expensive. It's not politically popular right now but frankly the only answer if we are to force the market to change its habits is to impose ever steeper gas taxes and use those taxes to fund alternative energy research. We should be diversifying our energy sources so that we are never ever ever ever again in a situation where one industry or company can control the faucet. Energy is an input to our economy -- it should be readily available. Sudden upward shifts in energy prices act as a damper on everyone else's economic activity. Sudden downward shifts accelerate it -- it's no accident that the Asian crash of 1997, which dampened oil prices down to $10 a barrel, was a prelude to the U.S. boom of the following two (or three) years -- and it's also no mystery why that boom suddenly kicked over and died when oil prices shot up again in 2001. Granting a monopoly on energy to anyone is an engraved invitation to abuse and corruption, and economic catastrophe.

Gradually inching up the price of gas to boil the frog, however, is something the Bush Republicans simply lack the stones to do, so it'll never happen on their watch. However, Bush's ham-fisted attempts at foreign policy are achieving the same effect at least on the prices -- it's just that there doesn't seem to be any corresponding funding of alternatives to grease the chute to the next energy economy when the oil economy finally implodes. Hope someone has a plan, 'cause it's obvious the Republicans don't!
 
Is there a breakdown how oil is used in the US? For example Manufacturing (of what?) vs transportation vs power vs ??
 
BPSCG said:
Scheuer maintains that if we want to win the global jihad, one of the things we need to do is become energy-independent. That way, we would no longer have to be in bed with corrupt, repressive, Muslim oil tyrannies, and ObL would have less reason to want to kill us.
So we should break off trade with Saudi Arabia to please ObL?

This whole argument doesn't make much sense to me. It strikes me as being similar to pulling out your teeth so that you will no longer be "dependent" on your dentist.

Cleon
Drilling in the ANWR will ruin the environment there, pretty much for good--and how much good it will do is questionable.
Can you elaborate?

Plus look at it from a futures standpoint. The price of oil changes, literally, every day--based on availability, production, political situations, and the flight pattern of a butterfly in Beijing. Unstable situations lead to problems, as we discovered in the 1970s.
It seems to me that there are simpler ways to address this than switching to a different industry.

SlippyToad
You can get a whole herd of technical experts in here to ramble on and on about efficiencies and reduced risks, but at the end of the day if a nuclear power plant goes up in smoke, we know for a fact that a significant swath of land will be rendered almost permanently uninhabitable.
Nuclear weapons are designed to explode, and how many accidents have there been? Nuclear power plants are designed to not explode, there are no cases of them doing so, and there's no reasonable expectation that they will.

it's hard to say that I feel safer with the "magic of the market" at the controls of nuclear power plants.
Are communism and unregulated free market the only options?

Add this to the fact that the entire known supply of fissionable material could power the world for a mere 25 years, I think, and I don't see nuclear fission power as a worthy investment in infrastructure.
Even if that's true (which I doubt) that still means that it could provide 25% of the power for 100 years.

The report mentioned that it would likely be 50 years before fusion was viable economically, but I'm willing to bet that the only reason the time period is so long is that our society lacks the will to commit the resources. If we needed fusion in 10 years, we could probably have it.
I think you're confusing "will" with "economic feasibility". We could have rubber band powered cars if we had "the will to commit the resources".

Nuclear fission is just a stopgap on the path to renewable, sustainable energy.
There isn't really any such thing as "renewable energy". The best we can get is energy that would have gone to waste anyway.
 
Re: Re: What Price Energy Independence?

SlippyToad said:
Add this to the fact that the entire known supply of fissionable material could power the world for a mere 25 years, I think, and I don't see nuclear fission power as a worthy investment in infrastructure.
This is quite a remarkable statistic. Can you cite a reference for it? And does "power the world" mean supply all the power that is now consumed everywhere? If so, it is a bit misleading to cite it in a discussion of USA energy policy. A better statistic would be how much fissionable material exists in the USA?
 
Re: Re: What Price Energy Independence?

Cleon said:
Drilling in the ANWR will ruin the environment there, pretty much for good--and how much good it will do is questionable.
I vaguely remember reading an assertion that merely properly inflating tires and/or using the latest tire technology would yield conservation savings in a year equivalent to the oil that might be extracted from ANWR. Obviously, I don't have a link but, if even remotely true, it would suggest that ANWR drilling is a very small portion of the overall energy problem.
 
Re: Re: What Price Energy Independence?

SlippyToad said:
Add this to the fact that the entire known supply of fissionable material could power the world for a mere 25 years, I think, and I don't see nuclear fission power as a worthy investment in infrastructure.

Where did you ever get this idea? Do you really think there will be no more fuel for nukes by 2030?

And to compare a nuke plant in the west to Chernobyl is just ridiculous. It's not just the people running it, the whole design is completely different.

I was heartened by recent reports that a nuclear fusion reactor was being attempted. The report mentioned that it would likely be 50 years before fusion was viable economically, but I'm willing to bet that the only reason the time period is so long is that our society lacks the will to commit the resources. If we needed fusion in 10 years, we could probably have it.

And why, given your reluctance to accept the safety of a fission reactor, are you so gung-ho over a fusion reactor?

Nuclear fission is just a stopgap on the path to renewable, sustainable energy.
Such as...? Bear in mind that wind power requires enormous amounts of land and infrastructure, solar panels are expensive and messy to produce and require even more area, biodiesel/ethanol would require more crop land that is arable (and where would food then be grown?) and also uses more fuel than it produces in all but the most ideal circumstances. Hydrogen requires enormous amounts of energy to produce - what will generate that energy? How will you store the hydrogen?

Nuke plants can't explode like an atom bomb, their pollution can be concentrated and stored, and there is enough fuel to last for 10,000 years at least. And the other reactors at 3 Mile Island are still generating electricity, it's certainly not a dead zone.
 
Re: Re: What Price Energy Independence?

Double post.
 
Luke T. said:
We will never be self-sufficient. Not only do we get our energy resources from other countries, but many other natural resources as well.

Shall we give up bananas, too?
So what? The problem isn't being dependent on other countries, the problem is being dependent on the Middle East. If the countries you'll need to buy nuclear material from are stable depedence is much less of a problem.
 
Re: Re: Re: What Price Energy Independence?

WildCat said:
[B
And why, given your reluctance to accept the safety of a fission reactor, are you so gung-ho over a fusion reactor? [/B]
Cause there's much less radioactive waste from it.
 

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