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What is Racism?

Roboramma

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
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Shanghai
There seem to be a few different viewpoints, all of which are at times considered to be racist, yet which, in my view, are entirely different.

The first, and in my opinion most offensive (and most likely to be wrong) is that there is an inherent, biological, difference between different races, and that this difference leads one race to be superior to another. The view, for instance, that people of african origin are less intelligent, or more lazy, than people of european origin. There is an even less sophisticated view that people of african origin are simply "inferior" or "less evolved", whatever that means, which people use to apply whatever negative trait suits them at the moment.

The second viewpoint is that, whatever the biological differences that may or may not exist, there are cultural differences between two segments of a particular society which happen to be easily identifiable by race. Those cultural differences lead to trends which are on average, though certainly not in all cases, true. For instance one might note that African Americans are more likely to commit violent crimes than Asian Americans*.

A third viewpoint, and perhaps much more common then either of the above in isolation, is a combination of the two.

The point I want to make here is that these two viewpoints are very different, though in practice they will tend to look the same, and it can be hard to separate someone who is racist in the first sense from someone who is racist in the second sense.

Moreover, while I have a problem with the first sort of racism as a point of fact: I think the evidence that it is simply wrong is strong enough to dismiss it, the problem with the second is more subtle. That is, the second sort is not actually wrong and I think we can all agree that different cultures are, well, different in one way or another. The problem is, rather, when trends within a population of individuals are arbitrarily attached to individuals: the assumption that since crime is more common amoung african americans that this particular african american is a criminal. The former is (perhaps) true, the latter is against, well, at least my own personal sense of justice. And I think that good arguments can be made that the latter also tends to reinforce those same disparities between groups.

What do others think? Do you agree that these different things are in fact different? Is the second sort actually racism? What about when it becomes directed at individuals rather than broad groups?
 
The problem with your second part is attributing statistics to race. Unless you look at underlying causes, you end up back at your first definition.

So no, I don't think they're that much different unless you're willing to go further and look at why things actually are* and not just stop at someone's statistical sampling.

And applying statistics to individuals is called stereotyping. I tend to find it less than useful when dealing with people.
 
Racism is in part preconceived negativeideas based on a person race or ethnicity. Rabbi Kahane once said that everyone is prejudiced regardless of their best effort not to be.
 
The problem with your second part is attributing statistics to race. Unless you look at underlying causes, you end up back at your first definition.
I don't see why that's necessarily the case. The statistics are simply associated with race, not necessarily attributed to them: that is, the person with the second viewpoint doesn't (necessarily) attribute any causation to those statistics, but simply notes that the trends themselves exist.

I don't actually see a problem with it when it goes that far, the problem I see is generally in what people want to do with that information once they've noted it. For example, in stereotyping as you point out.

So no, I don't think they're that much different unless you're willing to go further and look at why things actually are* and not just stop at someone's statistical sampling.
But someone can be of the opinion that group X has a higher rate of trait Y than does group Z, and still understand the socio-cultural/economic reasons for those differences. That is, the second viewpoint can coexist with the first racist viewpoint (as I point out in the OP), but it can also coexist with a more nuanced understanding. Part of my question is whether or not posters here consider that more nuanced understanding to fall under the umbrella term of racism.

And applying statistics to individuals is called stereotyping. I tend to find it less than useful when dealing with people.
Agreed.

I guess where I'm coming from is basically that living in china I'm faced every day with the fact that there are differences between one culture and another, and I don't think that acknowledging that is racist, and yet at the same time I see many people who make a big deal about those differences (and recognize that they are cultural differences) as having racist viewpoints.
 
Racism is in part preconceived negativeideas based on a person race or ethnicity. Rabbi Kahane once said that everyone is prejudiced regardless of their best effort not to be.

Well, personally I note that I make assumptions about Chinese people who were raised in China. Yet I never make those same assumptions about Chinese people who were raised in the USA, Canada, or even Taiwan, for instance.

(One of the assumptions that I make, which isn't always true, is that their english will not be very good*. Another which is also not always true, is that if its' a girl in her twenties, and she's not married, she still lives with her parents*.)

* There is a minority that speak very good english, often because they studied abroad.
* Some, for instance, live with female roommates. Though more often for girls who are not from shanghai, where I live.
 
Is the second sort actually racism?

I wouldn't say the second sort is racism unless you take it one step further and say that members of a certain race are predisposed towards certain behavior because of their race and regardless of any external factors or underlying causes.

What about when it becomes directed at individuals rather than broad groups?

Then you have stereotyping, which arguably is racist.

Just so that you know what I think, if I had to define racism, I would break it down into two categories as follows:

1) Positive or negative racial stereotypes.

2) The position, explicitly stated or implied, that one race is inherently inferior to another for whatever reason (biological, religious, etc.).

I think everything I would call racist falls into one of these or both. When similar statements are made regarding cultures, you have not racism, but ethnocentrism, the evaluation of other cultures according to the standards of your own culture.
 
Racism might be defined by the degree that multi-racial types confuse our feelings.

Thank god Tiger Woods is sexist.
 
Well, personally I note that I make assumptions about Chinese people who were raised in China. Yet I never make those same assumptions about Chinese people who were raised in the USA, Canada, or even Taiwan, for instance.

(One of the assumptions that I make, which isn't always true, is that their english will not be very good*. Another which is also not always true, is that if its' a girl in her twenties, and she's not married, she still lives with her parents*.)

* There is a minority that speak very good english, often because they studied abroad.
* Some, for instance, live with female roommates. Though more often for girls who are not from shanghai, where I live.

If you're concerned that either of those two preconceptions is at all racist, then I think you have little to worry about (or you have too much time on your hands to worry about things). You can only go by the statistical input you have available and the fact is that many single Chinese girls in their 20s live at home (as do many boys), and on the whole, while managers and management trainees have admirably strong English (compared to Cantonese-speaking Hong Kongers), the population as a whole can pretty much be counted on to have fairly poor English language skills.

Neither of those is a racist sentiment. There might be some lesson in there about not judging a book by its cover, or not leaping to conclusions, but I don't see where there's a high risk factor. Did you offend anyone with either such assumption, or is it just something that gives you pause?
 
There seem to be a few different viewpoints, all of which are at times considered to be racist, yet which, in my view, are entirely different.

The first, and in my opinion most offensive (and most likely to be wrong) is that there is an inherent, biological, difference between different races, and that this difference leads one race to be superior to another. The view, for instance, that people of african origin are less intelligent, or more lazy, than people of european origin. There is an even less sophisticated view that people of african origin are simply "inferior" or "less evolved", whatever that means, which people use to apply whatever negative trait suits them at the moment.

The second viewpoint is that, whatever the biological differences that may or may not exist, there are cultural differences between two segments of a particular society which happen to be easily identifiable by race. Those cultural differences lead to trends which are on average, though certainly not in all cases, true. For instance one might note that African Americans are more likely to commit violent crimes than Asian Americans*.

A third viewpoint, and perhaps much more common then either of the above in isolation, is a combination of the two.

The point I want to make here is that these two viewpoints are very different, though in practice they will tend to look the same, and it can be hard to separate someone who is racist in the first sense from someone who is racist in the second sense.

Moreover, while I have a problem with the first sort of racism as a point of fact: I think the evidence that it is simply wrong is strong enough to dismiss it, the problem with the second is more subtle. That is, the second sort is not actually wrong and I think we can all agree that different cultures are, well, different in one way or another. The problem is, rather, when trends within a population of individuals are arbitrarily attached to individuals: the assumption that since crime is more common amoung african americans that this particular african american is a criminal. The former is (perhaps) true, the latter is against, well, at least my own personal sense of justice. And I think that good arguments can be made that the latter also tends to reinforce those same disparities between groups.

What do others think? Do you agree that these different things are in fact different? Is the second sort actually racism? What about when it becomes directed at individuals rather than broad groups?

I think your second one is based on statistics data, no one can deny it. But I think, because of the second one, people try to figure out the reasons behind it and that leads to the first one. So I think your order should be second and then the first.

I attended my first TAM just over a week ago, learned a lot, like this forum.

I don't remember seeing a single person of African decent at TAM 8, which I don't quite understand, there were 1300 people there.

I did meet a few people from Muslim countries, which is also a little surprise to me.
 
I snipped the rest of your post for brevity, but please don't think I'm only responding to this point.

I don't see why that's necessarily the case. The statistics are simply associated with race, not necessarily attributed to them: that is, the person with the second viewpoint doesn't (necessarily) attribute any causation to those statistics, but simply notes that the trends themselves exist.



Well, if you're only looking at the one part you don't get anywhere else. Sure, by itself it's not even racist. The problem is people aren't going to stop there because stopping there is useless. They'll either use it to try and "prove" their racist beliefs or will look at why it's the way it is.

So, if you're looking at your nuanced view then no, I wouldn't consider it racism.

I have no idea how big the cultural differences are in China, but I don't really consider the differences in culture amongst racial groupings in America to be all that great, except perhaps for relatively new immigrant communities. I especially don't like it because it limits cultural differences to one thing: race. Race itself (a term I detest, but use because that's what our culture uses) is only one part of culture and doesn't in and of itself, explain much at all. Especially if the group in question has been part of the greater culture for some time.
 
Racism is in part preconceived negativeideas based on a person race or ethnicity. Rabbi Kahane once said that everyone is prejudiced regardless of their best effort not to be.

That's surely true, but his conclusion -- that it's therefore better to be openly and unapologetically racist -- is a bit like concluding from the fact that we all sometimes feel like killing someone, that it's better to just kill anybody who pisses you off, so as to not be a hypocrite...
 
That's surely true, but his conclusion -- that it's therefore better to be openly and unapologetically racist -- is a bit like concluding from the fact that we all sometimes feel like killing someone, that it's better to just kill anybody who pisses you off, so as to not be a hypocrite...

It would be more ethical to randomly kill the wounded, as other predators do, regardless of gender, race, religion, etc.
 
Did you offend anyone with either such assumption, or is it just something that gives you pause?

This was actually spurred more by the reactions of a friend than anything else. The short story is that his girlfriend dumped him because (well, according to her) her parents don't want her to be involved with a foreigner. His reaction has been to demonize the "ignorant farmers" (his words). The issue for me is that at least some of the things that he says are true: while manners are different from culture to culture, you get over that and adapt, sure (I do my best to follow chinese customs when appropriate, for instance), but some things just make sense. People should wait until everyone gets off the subway before trying to board it. People shouldn't **** in the street. It is obnoxious to smoke in a crowded elevator. I think I get as frustrated as anyone else by those sorts of behavior, and am unable (so far) to accept them as just cultural differences.

So when he starts to rant about those things, I agree. The problem is that his rants go further and he attributes them to "ignorant farmers". I'm stuck in a situation where I agree with many of his claims but not his broad viewpoint, and I guess this thread was an attempt to separate one from the other to understand how that works in my own mind.
 
So you're worried that he stereotypes farmers? I think you might be seeing the same thought process involved in hardcore racism but are probally smart enough to see the differences in severity. When it comes to certain things you may have to make a judgement call and sometimes it comes down on the side of the sterotype. Marketers have made quite a bit of money banking on the idea that some stereotypes will hold true.

As someone who rubs elbows with many East Asian farmers when I see one of these guys well up with a big sneeze I get the hell out of the way, because even if I only get sneezed on 1 out of 10 encounters I wouldn't really consider that a vicorty for tolerance and will stand for being called a bigot in this situation.
 
This was actually spurred more by the reactions of a friend than anything else. The short story is that his girlfriend dumped him because (well, according to her) her parents don't want her to be involved with a foreigner. His reaction has been to demonize the "ignorant farmers" (his words). The issue for me is that at least some of the things that he says are true: while manners are different from culture to culture, you get over that and adapt, sure (I do my best to follow chinese customs when appropriate, for instance), but some things just make sense. People should wait until everyone gets off the subway before trying to board it. People shouldn't **** in the street. It is obnoxious to smoke in a crowded elevator. I think I get as frustrated as anyone else by those sorts of behavior, and am unable (so far) to accept them as just cultural differences.

So when he starts to rant about those things, I agree. The problem is that his rants go further and he attributes them to "ignorant farmers". I'm stuck in a situation where I agree with many of his claims but not his broad viewpoint, and I guess this thread was an attempt to separate one from the other to understand how that works in my own mind.

Well, your friend is replacing the girl's parents' ignorant stereotyping with ignorant stereotyping of his own. Are her parents racists? Possibly. They could just be worried that they lose their daughter to some foreign location if he/she continue and they decide to emigrate. (Is she possibly the single child a la the infamous Chinese regulation?)

But him condemning them as "ignorant farmers" may or may not be true. Are they actually farmers? (Don't get a lot of those in Shangha that I know of, but she/they could've migrated from elsewhere.) I've known some real dumb city people and real smart farmers in my time. Let's just put his reaction down to anger over being dumped. Plus, there are a lot of Chinese girls who will continue the relationship and parents be damned. Not as many as in the West, but it's a growing number.

I've been accused of making racist comments about the Chinese in the business environment, here. This invariably comes from someone who is looking for PC buzz words or anything less than Pollyanna-ish joy at all things Chinese. (Usually first time visitors.... you know the type... "Oooh, look! Isn't it charming the way they drive that bicycle with the baby and dog right into the lane with the speeding SUV?")

We've had these discussions a number of times. Is it racist to say that black people like watermelon? Well, yes, they do like watermelon. So do yellow people and brown people and white people, though. So it is racist to make a crack about watermelon consumption and expect that your audience will get it (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) as to who you're referring to.

Is it racist to say that the Chinese are horribly inconsiderate drivers? Well, in Tulsa, quite likely. But nott really if you're in a city full of Chinese and you recognize that they've only really been driving for about a half-a-generation, and that they still think they're on those black single-speed bicycles and can steer and change directions and stop on a dime. That's just the reality of where you live. Some newcomer, though? They hear that kind of comment and think I'm an Ugly American (or you're an Ugly Canadian).

I'm totally comfortable with my personal politics. I remember passing the eyeballs in a fishhead curry to a Chinese friend, once. The guy who was with us, Waigworen from California, thought it was a racist assumption. Wrong. I knew the guy and that he was rather traditional, and also knew that barring some sort of really incredible anomaly, of everyone at the table he was the only one likely to eat fish eyeballs.

Blake was right. Innocence >> Experience >> Enlightened Innocence
 
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Well, your friend is replacing the girl's parents' ignorant stereotyping with ignorant stereotyping of his own. Are her parents racists? Possibly. They could just be worried that they lose their daughter to some foreign location if he/she continue and they decide to emigrate. (Is she possibly the single child a la the infamous Chinese regulation?)
Yeah, that's pretty much the way I see it. My own girlfriend's parents view of me is similar, with the caveat the they sort of have to put up with her decisions even if they're not happy about them. Luckily they've got a "wait and see" attitude of "give him a few years, if he's still around, then maybe he's alright".

But him condemning them as "ignorant farmers" may or may not be true. Are they actually farmers? (Don't get a lot of those in Shangha that I know of, but she/they could've migrated from elsewhere.)
They actually live outside shanghai, whereas she lives here, but I don't know that they're actually farmers. I think it's more his way of calling them what shanghainese refer to as people from "the countryside".

I've known some real dumb city people and real smart farmers in my time. Let's just put his reaction down to anger over being dumped. Plus, there are a lot of Chinese girls who will continue the relationship and parents be damned. Not as many as in the West, but it's a growing number.
Yeah, as you say, I think it's just a reaction to being dumped and he's likely to mellow out after some time. I was actually more interested in my reaction than his: that is, the fact that I found myself agreeing with some of the things he says while at the same time disagreeing with the broadness of it and the emotion behind it.

I've been accused of making racist comments about the Chinese in the business environment, here. This invariably comes from someone who is looking for PC buzz words or anything less than Pollyanna-ish joy at all things Chinese. (Usually first time visitors.... you know the type... "Oooh, look! Isn't it charming the way they drive that bicycle with the baby and dog right into the lane with the speeding SUV?")
Yeah, exactly! This is sort of what spurred me to write this thread: basically I find trouble with my friend's reaction, but then I find it is crazy to ride your bicycle with your whole family on board with cars driving like crazy all around you! The question I found myself asking was: "by agreeing with him when he reacts against those sorts of behaviors, am I accepting his semi-racist* sentiments?" but on reflection I think there's a middle ground.

Anyway, thanks for the posts. :)

* I say semi-racist because his sentiments aren't actually based on race: he doesn't direct his ire at chinese raised abroad. Actually, he is chinese raised abroad.
 

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