What is Fascism

[Tony]

An exchange between two posters on another thread inspired me to address this issue. "Fascist" and "Fascism" are terms that are constantly thrown around, but what do they really mean?

Webster's defines it as:

Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si-
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality.


Historically, what did the fascist movement want to accomplish? What did they believe in? What are the characteristics of a fascist state?

 

[geni]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

 

[Mycroft]

Historically, what did the fascist movement want to accomplish? What did they believe in?

If you measure by productivity and efficiency, fascism is a verry effective form of government. It's not an attractive alternative to anything we have now, but if you compare it to the poverty of the early 20th century, it's easier to understand the attraction.

 

[Bruce]

Shut up and do what you're told.

 

[Gwyn ap Nudd]

Re: Re: What is Fascism

If you measure by productivity and efficiency, fascism is a very effective form of government. It's not an attractive alternative to anything we have now, but if you compare it to the poverty of the early 20th century, it's easier to understand the attraction.

Although it was not the reality, the claim most often associated with Mussolini is that he made the trains run on time.

 

[Drooper]

An exchange between two posters on another thread inspired me to address this issue. "Fascist" and "Fascism" are terms that are constantly thrown around, but what do they really mean?

Webster's defines it as:

Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si-
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality.


Historically, what did the fascist movement want to accomplish? What did they believe in? What are the characteristics of a fascist state?

As I always say. Turn over a Fascist coin and there is a Communist (dare I say Socialist) on the other side. I am always amazed by the way the extreme left throw this term around as a perceived insult and then fail to look in the mirror.

Let's look at the defining qualities:

exalts nation...
...and often race above the individual
stands for a centralized autocratic government
headed by a dictatorial leader
severe economic and social regimentation
forcible suppression of opposition

Hmmm, North Korea, Cuba, Ex Soviet bloc, China, Myanmar etc. etc.

 

[Drooper]

Re: Re: What is Fascism

If you measure by productivity and efficiency, fascism is a verry effective form of government. It's not an attractive alternative to anything we have now, but if you compare it to the poverty of the early 20th century, it's easier to understand the attraction.

Proof please.

I would contend that experience and theory lend to the opposite conclusion.

Except in the case of war economies, where imassively increased intervention and central control is required, fascism would lead to the same perverse ecoonmic outcomes thatbrought Communism (or semantically more accurately Socialism) to its knees.

 

[Daylight]

Re: Re: What is Fascism

Let's look at the defining qualities:

exalts nation...
...and often race above the individual
stands for a centralized autocratic government
headed by a dictatorial leader
severe economic and social regimentation
forcible suppression of opposition

Hmmm, North Korea, Cuba, Ex Soviet bloc, China, Myanmar etc. etc.

Sounds like a society built around a religious theme. Seems to fit better, for example:

>>>exalts nation...
>>>...and often race above the individual

Our religion is the only true religion. You must go blow yourself up for god. Do this in the name of god.

>>>stands for a centralized autocratic government

Only through god can you get to heaven. This religious building and the ones that run it are in charge. Do as they say and follow their laws because god talks to them.

>>>headed by a dictatorial leader

God and his spokesmen. Clerics, Rev Moon, Pope

>>>severe economic and social regimentation

You must show up on Sunday, and now Wednesdays it looks like. You must tithe 10% of your income. Every few hours you must get on your knees and pray facing a specific direction

>>>forcible suppression of opposition

Spanish Inquisition, Salem Witch trials, Taliban, Abortion protests, Insurgents in Iraq, censorship, forcing ID into a science class.

I’m sure others here could do much better.

 

[Mycroft]

Except in the case of war economies...

I think the strong point of fascism is its ability to create a war economy without a war. A war economy, which while not a good economy, is preferable to a depression economy.

 

[CapelDodger]

There's a great deal of bollocks talked about Fascist economies. The longest lasting was the Spanish Franco regime, during which Spain actually regressed to a third-world status. Compare and contrast the progress of Spain pre- and post-Franco. Ditto Portugal. Italy fell back during Mussolini's rule, from a second-rank player to third-rank. By 1939 Nazi Germany was on its last legs, out of credit and facing bankruptcy. Only war - and the gold of the Polish Central Bank and other loot - saved it. It was expected by many to go down in 1937, but the effectiveness of wage and price controls to stave off the inevitable under a totalitarian regime was underestimated. What couldn't be put off were international creditors, except by the imposition of such a regime globally, I suppose.

Mussolini and Hitler floated their economies on deficit spending. This is all very well when it's going on productive investment, but in these cases much of it was going on arms, monuments and pet projects of the powerful. Franco's Spain, of course, was an example of Catholic Fascism (see Croatia and Vichy France), so it was actually meant to become medieval. Italy and Germany were examples of Totalitarian Fascism, which was meant to be the wave of the future but really, really wasn't.

The term Fascism can't be defined precisely because so many people claimed it during its gestation as a term. To the chattering classes it formed a large bag to hold new social phaenomena and political currents post-Great War and optimismism. The qualifications were to be anti-democratic, populist, nationalist, corporatist and anti-socialist. It's a useful term as far as that goes, but not much otherwise. The word itself it contingent, if Hitler had appeared before Mussolini we'd probably be debating the term Volkisch.

 

[CapelDodger]

Re: Re: What is Fascism

As I always say. Turn over a Fascist coin and there is a Communist (dare I say Socialist) on the other side. I am always amazed by the way the extreme left throw this term around as a perceived insult and then fail to look in the mirror.

Let's look at the defining qualities:

exalts nation...
...and often race above the individual
...

Hmmm, North Korea, Cuba, Ex Soviet bloc, China, Myanmar etc. etc.

Drooper, if you're not for real you're the best drawn parody I've ever come across. This is adolescent in the extreme. Communism is dogmatically anti-nationalist and anti-racist - bourgeous nationalism and aracism are means of distracting the workers from their true interests in the Class War. Remember Class War? Do you think Stalin was a nationalist? Or Tito? Marx? Trotsky?

With Mao you've got an argument, but a lot of comments about China recently have described the regime as dropping Communism for nationalism. Makes you think.

Stalin got into the Great Patriotic War theme for a very short and desperate period, but he was back to topping nationalists before it was even over.

Myanmar? Do tell. One of the last refuges of the KMT, last I heard, and a standard flat-pack gangster government.

As for the rest : corporatist, anti-democratic, populist. There we have an overlap.

 

[CapelDodger]

Re: Re: Re: What is Fascism

Sounds like a society built around a religious theme.

That depends on it being corporatist, meaning that the economy is centrally directed, and 10% tithes doesn't cut it given tax rates in democracies. Banning the honest and honourable business of banking definitely does. The US will become a religious state socially and culturally long before it does economically.

 

[Drooper]

Re: Re: Re: What is Fascism

Drooper, if you're not for real you're the best drawn parody I've ever come across. This is adolescent in the extreme. Communism is dogmatically anti-nationalist and anti-racist - bourgeous nationalism and aracism are means of distracting the workers from their true interests in the Class War. Remember Class War? Do you think Stalin was a nationalist? Or Tito? Marx? Trotsky?

With Mao you've got an argument, but a lot of comments about China recently have described the regime as dropping Communism for nationalism. Makes you think.

Stalin got into the Great Patriotic War theme for a very short and desperate period, but he was back to topping nationalists before it was even over.

Myanmar? Do tell. One of the last refuges of the KMT, last I heard, and a standard flat-pack gangster government.

As for the rest : corporatist, anti-democratic, populist. There we have an overlap.

Wow, you seem to have a lot of personal capital invested in Socialism.


race over individual (I think you misconstrued what this means)
At the heart of communism is race over individual. Private property is theft, individual economic freedom (such as the right to make contracts) is thought to be counter to the good of the whole, hence banned. Unbelievable how you could even dispute this.

stands for centralized autocratic government
Are you seriously going to contend that this does not fit Communism like a glove in both principle and practice?

Headed by a dictatorial leader.
How many examples can you give me of a Communist/Socialist state where this isn't/wasn't true?

severe economic and social regimentation
...ditto...

forcible suppression of opposition
...ditto...


It may grate with your politics, but how can you deny that it fits like a glove?

Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si-
Function: noun
See Communism

And you're right. Myanmar was a mistake - but you can see how easy it is to confuse Socialist/Communist states with Fascist ones.


Just substutute, say, Cuba, for that one. You see there are loads more examples.

 

[CapelDodger]

Re: Re: Re: Re: What is Fascism

Wow, you seem to have a lot of personal capital invested in Socialism.


race over individual (I think you misconstrued what this means)
At the heart of communism is race over individual. Private property is theft, individual economic freedom (such as the right to make contracts) is thought to be counter to the good of the whole, hence banned. Unbelievable how you could even dispute this.

Sorry about that last post, I was clearly more fried than I realised last night. I don't have anything invested in socialism, but rather more in factual accuracy.

I don't get your meaning of "race". At the heart of various social schemes you find community over individual, but community is not identical with race. It could be a religious community, a multi-ethnic nation or a class-based community such as the proletariat. "Community" is often identified with "State", as in Fascism and Communism. Communism is universalist, while Fascism is often racist and always nationalist.

Communism and socialism are much better defined than Fascism, since the concepts have been around a lot longer and theorising - not to say theologising - was almost its sole occupation until 1917. Fascism, on the other hand, is a grab-bag term to cover a variety of ill-thought-out political vapour-ware. It serves to confuse more than elucidate.

As to the rest, you're describing totalitarianism, which I think is a useful term. The State is all, the individual merely grateful and awestruck at its transcendent majesty - apart from those few superbly gifted individuals who currently embody its wondrousness and shall have statues. Communism, of course, extols democratic centralism and abhors the cult of the individual. Trotsky pointed that out to Stalin, who didn't take it very well. A touchy bugger, Stalin. More Ratzinger than Kung (one auto-da-fe trumps any amount of theologising).

 

[CapelDodger]

Re: Re: Re: Re: What is Fascism

And you're right. Myanmar was a mistake - but you can see how easy it is to confuse Socialist/Communist states with Fascist ones.

Myanmar isn't Fascist, it has a gangster government. Fascism may be a fuzzy term, but it implies at least some form of ideology. Gangster governments are just in it for the money, the power and the women that go with it. They used to be known as "aristocracies".

 

[Tony]

Can someone define "corporatism" and it's relationship to the state in fascism?

 

[Drooper]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What is Fascism

I don't get your meaning of "race". At the heart of various social schemes you find community over individual, but community is not identical with race.

If you read back to the original definition at the top of this thread it clearly states as the imperative:

"...exalts nation and often race above the individual"

This clearly implies that it exalts nation over individual, but not necessarily race. This is a universal characteristic of Communism/Socialism - in fact it is the concept at the heart of Socialism.

And if you really want to take this debate right down to the minutae, there is a modern social concept of race (as opposed to genetic/biological) according to Websters:

a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock
b : a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics <the English race>

 

[Drooper]

Can someone define "corporatism" and it's relationship to the state in fascism?

Another made-up concept brought to you by the wacky world of sociology.

 

[CapelDodger]

Can someone define "corporatism" and it's relationship to the state in fascism?

Corporatism means central direction of the economy and social institutions to achieve planned national goals. The plans are made by the State/Party, which administers the Nation, which embodies The People, so it's for their own good, of course. Control can be by nationalisation or regulation. In Nazi Germany it was largely exercised through the already existing industrial cartels, by employment legislation and through state-controlled unions. Education, religion, the media, the arts, youth groups and so on must serve the interests of the State.

In Italy and Spain control was basically by licencing and monopolies, which were allocated according to bribery. Endemic corruption was also the outcome in Eastern Europe and (perhaps to a lesser extent) China under Communism, which may be telling us something.

 

[CapelDodger]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What is Fascism

This clearly implies that it exalts nation over individual, but not necessarily race. This is a universal characteristic of Communism/Socialism - in fact it is the concept at the heart of Socialism.

It is not. Quite the opposite. The central concept of Socialism is that your interests are determined by your class, not nation or race. Nation and race are regarded as deliberate distractions to keep the common man from recognising his true interests. "Workers of the World Unite!" The Fourth International. And the other Internationals, not to mention L'Internationale. In the Socialist Utopia, the State and nations will wither away; the end of nations is an objective of Socialism.