What Does Conservatism Offer?

[Tony]

Aside from a religious and pro-upper class agenda, conservatism has shown itself to be a totally bankrupt set of principles. If we go back to the height of conservatism, we find talk about small government, low government spending and personal freedom as bedrock conservative principles. This makes for good talk during election time, but these goals are almost never pursued when conservatives actually get elected. I will offer some examples:

- No conservative president has ever shrunk the size of government. Not Reagan, not Bush I and not Bush II.

- Conservatives are rarely, if ever, on the side of personal freedom. To take the biggest such issue today, a majority of conservatives and conservative politicians consistently stand against gay rights in general and gay marriage in particular. One glaring example is the conservative outcry to the decision in Lawrence v. Texas in 2003. This also belies their small government cred. If a government is big enough to regulate such a fundamental matter as sex between consenting adults, you automatically concede that it is big enough to regulate almost anything else.

- There has never been a conservative administration that spent less coming out of office than did coming into office. Reagan increased military spending, so did both Bush's. Having never vetoed a spending bill, Bush II was especially bad in this regard.

These points barely scratch the surface and more issues will come up later in the thread, but I wanted to get a conversation started by asking: Since conservatives have shown a disinterest in actually putting these ideas into practice and since the conservatives who do care have been incapable of finding a remedy, when do you conclude that conservatism itself is either an empty shell or a pipe dream? Aside from a religious or pro-upper class agenda, what does it offer?

 

[Beerina]

Conservatism is the belief in established traditions as a hard-won storehouse of wisdom. It should be changed, and only slowly and with great debate.

Liberalism is the belief that society needs large breaks with the past to save itself from itself.


Things like gay marriage, or abortion before it, or minority rights before it, can't come into being until a critical mass of society gets behind it. Only then can a handful of vanguard judges try to declare a change, legislating from the bench, or would Congress even dream of passing different laws.

At that point, people play mind games with themselves that, golly, everyone opposed is evil incarnate. Yet only a few years earlier, any politician saying that would get their hat handed to them at the next election.

What one takes from this is to just keep pushing on those ideas if you want to change them. "Liberalism" as harbinger of change only precedes conservatism by a few years or a decade. Many states were liberalizing abortion laws by conscious decision and legislation when some judges decided critical mass had been achieved and they changed things for all.


As far as spending goes, Bush, Jr., increased spending a lot, especially near the end of his term. This is a liberal position, and he was called on it at the time.

I find it interesting that you call conservatism "bankrupt" insofar as the politicians deviate from it into liberalism.

 

[Brainster]

Would you say that liberalism is bankrupt in that it fails to achieve all its priorities? Or is it simply that both parties are forced to compromise their stated principles in order to achieve consensus?

 

[Bikewer]

We do tend to use these terms to categorize things well outside of original definitions.

"Conservative" has come to be shorthand for Religious-extremist, Pro-Life, pro-death penalty, strong "law & order", and in general the positions of the extreme Right.

"Liberal" is likewise code for the extreme left positions that are often 180 degrees reversed from the above....

Real liberals and conservatives should be able to find many points of agreement and also to be able to compromise and reach agreement on the more contentious items.
But with extreme polarization... IE="No tax increases, ever!", there's not much to work with.

 

[jj]

Conservatism, as it presently manifests, is no more conservative than a Marxist agitator. The only difference is that the modern "conservative" (and those are quotes of contempt, indeed) wants to radically reform society into a religious, miserable state reminiscent of the Islamic societies, except organized around principles of Christianitiy rather than Islam. The "modern conservative" is a radical reactionary, not a conservative, and is calling for radical change in service to their god myth and the power of money.

 

[Dessi]

Conservatism is the belief in established traditions as a hard-won storehouse of wisdom. It should be changed, and only slowly and with great debate.

Liberalism is the belief that society needs large breaks with the past to save itself from itself.

I hope I'm not the only one who finds these definitions suspicious. What single issue do conservatives support or oppose based on tradition?

- Gay rights and marriage: underlying opposition has nothing to do with "tradition", but rather a belief that homosexuality is immoral and gay marriage tacitly validates homosexuality.

- Civil rights for women and racial minorities: opposition to both issues is ostensibly rooted in racisim and sexism.

- Abortion: its been a part of American culture for 30 years, opposition to abortion is a large break with the past to save society.

- Supply-side economics: no one had ever heard or developed a coherent theory of supply-side economics until the 1970s, it developed as a fiscally conservative reaction to "liberal Kenynesian economics". Its has no traditional roots at all, it it weren't for the cult of personality surrounding Ronald Reagon, supply-side probably would have faded into obscurity.

- Evangelical Christianity: it wasn't until the ultra-right Christians won favor with the GOP in the 1980s that the two groups became synonymous. There's nothing "traditional" about this relationship at all.

I don't think the "liberals reactionary, conservatives traditional" holds true at all. Both are reactionary, their prejudices pull in opposite directions. I'd say the US drifts further and further to the left because many prejudices conservatives stand behind (homophobia, transphobia, sexism, racism, Christianity, upper-class elitism, Islamophobia, xenophobia) are morally offensive and have no rational justification.

 

[Travis]

I've always argued that Conservatives are readily willing to sell out their beliefs in sound fiscal policy if it allows them control of culture. Give them the option to either a) balance the budget or b) put all the homosexuals in prison camps and they'd gladly jump at the latter even if it comes at the expense of the former.

 

[Newtons Bit]

I've always argued that Conservatives are readily willing to sell out their beliefs in sound fiscal policy if it allows them control of culture. Give them the option to either a) balance the budget or b) put all the homosexuals in prison camps and they'd gladly jump at the latter even if it comes at the expense of the former.

D:

 

[bikerdruid]

What Does Conservatism Offer?

nothing good for the vast majority of people.
it serves the rich and corrupt.

 

[Brainster]

I've always argued that Conservatives are readily willing to sell out their beliefs in sound fiscal policy if it allows them control of culture. Give them the option to either a) balance the budget or b) put all the homosexuals in prison camps and they'd gladly jump at the latter even if it comes at the expense of the former.

Who's to say we can't have both?

 

[Grizzly Adams]

I've always argued that Conservatives are readily willing to sell out their beliefs in sound fiscal policy if it allows them control of culture. Give them the option to either a) balance the budget or b) put all the homosexuals in prison camps and they'd gladly jump at the latter even if it comes at the expense of the former.

For some reason it doesn't at all surprise me that you would actually argue (and believe) that crap.

As for the OP, in order to answer your question you have to define "conservatism." It means different things to different people, and some people just put into that category anything they don't like.

 

[Virus]

Prison camps for gays.

Sure you guys aren't just talking bollocks?

 

[Robrob]

Prison camps for gays.

Sure you guys aren't just talking bollocks?

You haven't met our conservatives have you?

 

[Virus]

Who calls for putting gays in prison camps?

 

[Pantaz]

Prison camps for gays.

Sure you guys aren't just talking bollocks?

You haven't met our conservatives have you?

You'll have to define "our conservatives", because it certainly doesn't include me. But then, since the "tea party" idiocy started bleeding into the Republican party, I find it increasingly difficult to retain any association.

 

[Tony]

Conservatism is the belief in established traditions as a hard-won storehouse of wisdom. It should be changed, and only slowly and with great debate.

That may be your personal definition, but conservatism certainly isn't sold as that to the American people. In fact, conservatism today is demonstrably non-traditional with most of its ideas. Dessi covered this in her post.

I defined conservatism in my OP and I think most people would acknowledge those ideas as ideas conservatives claim to hold, so I think the question still stands.

Liberalism is the belief that society needs large breaks with the past to save itself from itself.

No it isn't.

I find it interesting that you call conservatism "bankrupt" insofar as the politicians deviate from it into liberalism.

If you truly believe this is what I am saying, you're not understanding the thesis of the OP.

 

[Tony]

Would you say that liberalism is bankrupt in that it fails to achieve all its priorities?

Nope. And that is not what I am saying about conservatism.

 

[Tony]

As for the OP, in order to answer your question you have to define "conservatism." It means different things to different people, and some people just put into that category anything they don't like.

I defined it. Please re-read the OP.

So far, I haven't seen much of a defense of conservatism.

 

[Howie Felterbush]

Conservatism is governing using bad ideas from the past.

Liberalism is governing using bad ideas that are new.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

I defined it. Please re-read the OP.

Not really.

So far, I haven't seen much of a defense of conservatism.

The terms remain undefined and most people here are liberal hippies anyway.