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What do magicians think about Uri Geller?

Czarcasm

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I don't want this to be yet another expose of Geller.
On another message board I frequent someone tried to justify Uri Geller's antics by saying that the majority of professional magicians admire his work and see him as one their own. Is this true?
 
Geller has about three tricks. I haven't seen him even try to develop new magic in decades. As far as I'm concerned, he's a very poor magician.
 
But I've been told that he has been honored at various magician's conferences and get-togethers. Why, if they don't think he is a good magician and not a conman?
 
From what I've seen it's split. Some magicians admire how well he got away with fooling people with magic tricks and misdirection. Some think he's immoral.

What's most interesting to me are mentalists (a branch of magic, but a lot of mentalists don't consider themselves magicians). There seem to be three different types:

1. The mentalist that is also an outspoken skeptic/critical thinker, or at least admits they use trickery in their act when asked. They know the tricks of the trade and don't approve of someone using them to actually convince others they have special powers. Most of these types don't like Uri but will work on mimicking his techniques.

2. Mentalists who are true believers in the paranormal. They will admit they themselves use the usual mentalist tricks, but believe there are people in the world with psychic powers, especially Uri.

3. The most interesting to me personally: Mentalists who don't necessarily believe that anyone has psychic powers, but will go on record as a believer to protect the art of mentalism. They feel the more normal audiences actually think psychic powers could be real, the better for business. They tend to like Uri and often promote themselves as having actual powers, or deftly dance around the point when asked.
 
From what I've seen it's split. Some magicians admire how well he got away with fooling people with magic tricks and misdirection. Some think he's immoral.


^This.

Here's a discussion on The Magic Cafe forum following Geller's appearance at the recent Genii Magazine convention:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=494596&forum=15&54

And in case people are interested in how Geller speaks to magicians, as opposed to laymen:

http://www.mastersofmagic.it/2012/05/uri-geller-2/

Not quite as full of BS as he used to be (he now admits he's an entertainer who created an act), but I don't think he will ever come fully clean.
 
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I know that the Magic Cafe has embraced some, shall we say "iffy" personalities(one that tried to work a con job over here springs to mind), but the fact that one of them can write "Ethical considerations aside..." and not one poster calls him on it tells me a lot about that group. If Harry Houdini were alive today I wonder how he would respond to their praise of Geller.

edited to add: I just saw the video, and the first words out of his mouth, to magicians, is a steaming pile of a story about a spoon bending itself.
 
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I'm a magician, although not a professional. I find that celebrity gives some protection to criticism. I don't think of Geller as primarily a magician either. Kreskin might be a better example or Derren Brown. Those two are primarily entertainers while Geller drifted into cult territory and "psi".

When someone goes "off the reservation" and they aren't really viewed as a magician, it doesn't reflect poorly on magic-as-entertainment. Take your average free energy con -- it can use what to a magician would be a magical prop (the magical machine) but isn't presented as magic. I'm not slighted by stuff like that.

What's worse is when someone who is a magician exposes magic for kicks, or turns out to be a pedophile, or is found guilty of embezzling a few hundred grand. Scandals in the magic fraternity usually revolve around ethics and harm to the craft, not, unfortunately so much harm to the public.

This is why skeptics are so needed.

What we tend to do is not welcome them back into the fold if they try to transition back. I haven't heard anything about Geller in ages and didn't know he'd gone back to "regular" mentalism.

ETA: I just watched the link above (the Masters of Magic thing) and I realized how much like a two-headed calf he is. Something bizarre to look at, but not really anyone I'd want to emulate. And that's critical. The "want to emulate" bit is one of the highest compliments you can pay in the entertainment arts.
 
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I know that the Magic Cafe has embraced some, shall we say "iffy" personalities(one that tried to work a con job over here springs to mind), but the fact that one of them can write "Ethical considerations aside..." and not one poster calls him on it tells me a lot about that group. If Harry Houdini were alive today I wonder how he would respond to their praise of Geller.


While I agree with your sentiment, the person who made that post was Bob Cassidy, a very well known and highly respected mentalist and creator/writer. Maybe that had something to do with no one calling him out on it.

I am not really into mentalism these days so don't know if he's expounded on how he feels about ethics and fake psychic claims elsewhere. I'm pretty sure he doesn't claim any real powers himself.
 
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edited to add: I just saw the video, and the first words out of his mouth, to magicians, is a steaming pile of a story about a spoon bending itself.


I assume you mean his recounting of his experience when he was five and a spoon bent and broke by itself.

Yes, it very likely didn't happen, at least not how he's telling it. But, knowing how fallible and malleable our memory is, he's probably told that story enough times and "remembered" it in his mind again and again, that it wouldn't surprise me if he actually thinks it happened the way he tells it.

After that, he does admit that the memory served as an inspiration for him to develop an "entertaining" spoon-bending act. That part I can believe.

ETA: I have to admit, though, that I should probably thank Geller indirectly for me becoming a skeptic. I had seen him on TV when I was a kid (and bought the whole thing), but then stumbled on a copy of James Randi's The Magic of Uri Geller (as it was titled then), which shed a lot of light on the whole thing, thankfully. :)
 
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Is it worth mentioning that magicians come in the same assorted flavors as everyone else?

When we do challenge someone on skeptical grounds, it's usually in the areas of mentalism or hypnosis. I've seen some smackdowns on the Magic Cafe when someone went "over the edge" with their claims. But then again, there's no real demand to be impolite about it and there is a policy there that really contentious threads get deleted, which may shape the sample.

I'll see if I can find one where "woo" is challenged...
The effect is described in the first post here: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=485359&forum=191

This is about "invisible hypnosis," a mysterious technique that may be related to NLP. Take a look and you'll see how the concept gets raked over the coals by practicing hypnotists. The critique is here: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=488553&forum=22&63

Not straight skepticism in the way we do it here, but certainly a reaction to an outrageous claim. I have to believe, if Geller had been part of a group of "regular" magicians, he would have gotten much the same treatment.
 
I'm with Max Mang on his analysis of mentalists and their types, and marplots is pretty close to my observations of how magicians and mentalists view people like Geller. I have actually been appalled at the love shown to Geller in the magical and mentalist communities, particularly mentalism. He is known to be close to several big names, and it is not uncommon for him to be mentioned favorably in excellent books on the topic.

Bob Cassidy is an interesting fellow, and I used to have exchanges with him on the Magic Cafe. I haven't been there in a long time (except for an occasional pop in to look up a review on a specific book) for various reasons, including burnout, but I was known as one of the closed-minded skeptics. Bob, however, viewed me a bit more favorably, I think, not because of my positions with which he generally disagrees but because I was generally polite, at least when those I debated with were polite.

Bob also has a curious worldview which he weaves into his mentalist act; it might not be mystical or supernatural, but it at least borders on it. It has been too long for me to summarize it accurately, but if you ever get the chance, ask him about his idea of the web (not internetz).
 
It occurs to me there's another good reason why magicians aren't out there (as a rule) debunking people who use the techniques.

If you think about it, conjuring is in a kind of mutually assured destruction dilemma. Here's why. If I, or anyone who is involved in magic, see someone's act, we can maybe recreate or at least figure out perhaps 80 -90% (depends on the magician and the act and 90% is conservative, it's not uncommon to be 100%). And, since we value secrecy so much, each of us is vulnerable to exposure by the others. If I go around telling how woo-ish magician X did something, then he's just as capable and could expose what I do (even though I may do it solely for entertainment). Plus there's a great deal of overlap. The same methods can be used to produce a woo claim or just for entertainment. Exposure of the method ruins both.

Even on this forum, we are not allowed to expose magic effects. And, if I remember correctly, Randi didn't show how things were done so much as duplicate them and say he did it with trickery. (I may be wrong in some cases, I'm not that well read in specifics on Randi.)

What magicians are highly skeptical about is a magician (Geller or anyone else) who claims special powers to other magicians -- that's a good way to get laughed out of the room. In fact, there's a catch phrase, "real magic" that is used disparagingly as in: "Yeah, right. He used real magic. Sure."

Still, outside of the craft, we, like everyone else, have room for religious beliefs, alternative medicine beliefs and so on. Those aren't in our purview (as magicians) and we would look to scientists for any debunking if it were of interest.

As a side note, I used to think I became a skeptic because I learned the "behind the scenes" by studying performance magic. I now think I was attracted to magic because I was first of skeptical bent and the fit was a good one.
 
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While I agree with your sentiment, the person who made that post was Bob Cassidy, a very well known and highly respected mentalist and creator/writer. Maybe that had something to do with no one calling him out on it.

What Cassidy wrote was:

Ethical considerations aside, Geller's effects and presentational style did in fact have a major influence on our art and changed it significantly. Personally, I believe that his arrival breathed new life into mentalism.

I'm not sure what requires 'calling out'. Seems to me that he wants to make a statement about Geller's influence on mentalism and wants to make it clear that he's not endorsing Geller's ethics.
 
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It's true. You only have to look at how far fork and spoon bending (and keys and coins) has come, not only in what magicians offer up, but what the public accepts as "watchable."

I'm not sure that Geller really invented anything method-wise, but he certainly put it in the public's mind.
 
I'm not sure that Geller really invented anything method-wise, but he certainly put it in the public's mind.

That's probably true. But then Copperfield hasn't really invented much method-wise . His influence on magic is also based on his performance- not who invented whatever he performs.
 

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