What are Dreams Made of?

[Iacchus]

This was something that come up in the God versus Evolution thread, and I thought I might repost it here ...

Lacchus
I believe that everybody moves on to another dimension not just children, so when you pop your clogs you could find yourself sitting next to Hitler or Attila the Hun

Hmm ... I had a dream about that once. It had been a long drive and I had parked my pickup truck along the coast of the sea (Pacific Ocean) and began to take a nap. And I found myself flying up in the mountains over these green fields and wondering what it was about.

And I began to feel a sense of superiority and pride well up over the horizon. And lo and behold here was Uncle Adolf, welcoming me into his parlor, I was but a lad, as he began to cajole with me, and persuade me into thinking how important it was to join the Nazi party. Indeed, I was a prime candidate in his eyes.

This went on for what seemed to be an hour, with him giving me the whole spiel on the glory of the party, until finally I said, "Oh, well alright!" just to get him to stop. At which point he turned into a snappy black wiry poodle dog, quivering in anticipation as I began to pet it. Then all of a sudden I was wide awake in the front of my pickup truck, saying, "Whoa, what the heck was that all about!"

Notice how the dream describes so much detail and, how I'm consciously aware throughout? Now doesn't it seem rather odd, that such a thing should come about merely through the electro-chemical processes of the brain? Especially since I'm conscious and not aware of my physical body at the same time? And who was this other character with me, who seemed to operate from his own impulses and had control over the situation? It sure didn't seem like a figment of my imagination to me.

And what if I would have died during my sleep, and the dream continuted? What might that suggest? That maybe I have a soul? Now that's something worth considering don't you think?

If you would be interested in reading about a couple more "lucid dreams" I've had please refer to here ...

http://www.dionysus.org/x0501.html
http://www.dionysus.org/x0601.html#11
http://www.dionysus.org/x0901.html

 

[Skeptical Greg]

.........And what if I would have died during my sleep, and the dream continuted?

And how would we ever know?

 

[Hexxenhammer]

What are dreams made of?

A mix of too much porn, video games, and sugary drinks in my case.

 

[Iacchus]

And how would we ever know?

What, before you die or afterwards? And are sure you don't mean why? Doesn't it even suggest the possibility that there might be something there?

And who are these other characters in our dreams if not actual spirits? No plausibility there either? Is it because you rely exclusively on science for an answer that you won't even bother? And since when does science have anything to do with the experience of one's own "personal reality?"

 

[Zep]

In reply to the thread title: According to the venerable lawyer and self-inflating moron, Victor Zammit, dreams are made of soft fluffy fibres similar to cushion stuffing or torn bedsheets that psychic mediums pull out of their mouths while in a "trance".

 

[Iacchus]

In reply to the thread title: According to the venerable lawyer and self-inflating moron, Victor Zammit, dreams are made of soft fluffy fibres similar to cushion stuffing or torn bedsheets that psychic mediums pull out of their mouths while in a "trance".

Really? That hasn't been my experience. Would you care to elaborate?

 

[evildave]

Sugar, spice and everything..., oh wait. That's the ingredients to little girls. Not to be mixed up with that other sticks, snails, puppy dog tails recipe.

 

[Yahweh]

This was something that come up in the God versus Evolution thread, and I thought I might repost it here ...

Notice how the dream describes so much detail and, how I'm consciously aware throughout?

I dont think so, you are quite able to "percieve", but you have no self-awareness while you are dreaming (unless you are having a Lucid experience).

Its one of those weird quirks with brain, while you are asleep, you are "unconscious" (as in lacking self-awareness) during the whole bout of it. This phenomena of "unawareness" is necessary, without it you begin to die, and thats bad.

Now doesn't it seem rather odd, that such a thing should come about merely through the electro-chemical processes of the brain? Especially since I'm conscious and not aware of my physical body at the same time?

I'll reiterate, you can "percieve" without awareness.

Here is a small quote from Science and Consciousness Review - Internal Monologue:

Imagine that scientists have been successful at designing a drug that “freezes” brain areas producing our internal monologue. After taking the drug you can’t talk to yourself anymore. Every other mental activity is fine, but it’s now total silence in your head. Not a word. What would happen? What would it be like?

Of course, such a pharmacological agent doesn’t exist. Actually, we don’t need it. Some unfortunate people suffer from brain damage that selectively interrupts inner speech. It’s as if they were under the influence of this imaginary drug. Scott Moss, a psychologist who was victim of a stroke, lost the ability to use language. He was able to recuperate and related his experience:

<blockquote> “I had lost the ability to converse with others … and to engage in self-talk. In other words, I did not have the ability to think about the future—to worry, to anticipate or perceive it—at least not with words. Thus for the first four or five weeks after hospitalization I simply existed.”</blockquote>

What this quotation suggests is that inner speech makes us aware of what we are experiencing. Moss, because he was unable to talk to himself about what was happening in his mind, “simply existed.” Surely he was feeling and perceiving things, but he was only vaguely—if at all—aware of his mental processes; furthermore, he was incapable of foresight.

And who was this other character with me, who seemed to operate from his own impulses and had control over the situation? It sure didn't seem like a figment of my imagination to me.

And what if I would have died during my sleep, and the dream continuted? What might that suggest? That maybe I have a soul? Now that's something worth considering don't you think?

Perhaps we're jumping to conclusions... yeah, I definitely think we're jumping ahead of ourselves when we go that far to consider the existence of a soul based on well understood physical phenomena

If you would be interested in reading about a couple more "lucid dreams" I've had please refer to here ...

http://www.dionysus.org/x0501.html
http://www.dionysus.org/x0601.html#11
http://www.dionysus.org/x0901.html

I have had a few Lucid Experiences myself, I am wonderfully evil when given omnipotence

 

[Zep]

Really? That hasn't been my experience. Would you care to elaborate?

OK, perhaps not "fluff" but certainly "ectoplasm", which looked sorta like luminous fluff anyway. Tell me what YOU think...


From Victor's Psychic Hall of Fame:

HELEN DUNCAN
Was a most magnificent materialization medium from Scotland and one of the most important women in psychic history. The British Government indirectly acknowledged she was a genuine materialization medium and was the first psychic to become a national security risk in wartime Britain. She was murdered when arrogant police leadership blasted their way while she was in a séance and putting the electricity on inevitably made the medium's ectoplasm (the whitish vapour which is emitted from materialization mediums) to be pulled back in the body at fantastic speed which caused her unfortunate death. Churchill is reported to have been one of her sitters.

To be followed by this charming image "proving" she was real:

 

[Dancing David]

Memories and associations:

The characters in dreams are about as real as the ones in a cartoon.

 

[Mercutio]

It's all Queen Mab...

 

[Iacchus]

Memories and associations:

The characters in dreams are about as real as the ones in a cartoon.

So, what characters do you play in your dreams? Or, are you saying that's not even you?

 

[Funkenstien]

What are dreams made of?

The Maltese Falcon. Don't you guys ever watch AMC?

 

[Iacchus]

Anybody else have any dreams that they would like to relate? Maybe we can get into some of the details and talk about how real they can get?

Or what about near death experiences people claimed to have had, where they describe these incredible visionary experiences they've had? And how could they describe such things if they weren't conscious?

Or, maybe we can talk about some of the experiences I've had here? ...

http://www.dionysus.org/x0501.html
http://www.dionysus.org/x0601.html#11
http://www.dionysus.org/x0901.html

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Have you talked to Lifegazer about this?..

They believe everything is a construct of your mind anyway, in which case, dreams would appear as real as any other perceived state of existance..

I have no way to refute such a claim..

Enjoy the ride..

P.S.

I too have very lucid dreams from time to time.. They are very personal almost religious ( best term I can come up with ) experiences.. I really have no desire to share such experiences with anyone else..

 

[Iacchus]

OK, perhaps not "fluff" but certainly "ectoplasm", which looked sorta like luminous fluff anyway. Tell me what YOU think...


From Victor's Psychic Hall of Fame: To be followed by this charming image "proving" she was real:

Yeah, I can see this must have been what you had in mind in the previous post.

 

[Checkmite]

And who are these other characters in our dreams if not actual spirits? No plausibility there either?

Couldn't they possibly be mental constructs?

Perhaps I should put it another way. Have you ever been involved in writing an in-depth story of some sort? Perhaps a movie script, or a work of interactive fiction, or even a book? Maybe your writing wasn't as long, and consisted only of a short story; or a series of short stories featuring the same characters.

When we develop locations and characters for our fiction, we tend to draw on things we're familiar with. A character, for instance, might be a composite of qualities and attributes taken from yourself, and friends, and from different people on the news. We take these ropes and tie them together to make a somewhat original-sounding and independent character. We can tailor-make this character, too...pick the traits we feel would best lead to the exposition of drama in whatever situation we put them in. Likewise for locations; you take elements of the town you grew up in, the city you visited, and your grandma's house, and come up with something that on its face looks completely new. You could dissect it if you wanted, and find the different elements you may have unintentionally slipped in there, but nobody else could...as who knows of your experiences?

When good writers write, they first work on their plot and genre, of course; but then they develop these characters and locations and work on them, and work on them, and work on them until they are three-dimensional, and may as well be real. Sometimes during the course of this work, the plot may start to sound silly or contrived, and the writer abandons it. But all of you writers...can you remember some intriguing character or set of characters, or some amazing location that you held onto like crazy, seeking to find some reasonable plot to put them in? I can think of plenty. Sometimes you find a plot and it works out...other times you can't, and your characters slowly die in your head. It's not pleasant, because they feel alive.

When you dream, your brain simply goes through this process of taking elements from that which has experienced, and mixing-matching them to create new things...characters or locations. If your mind's characters are strongly written, they can indeed seem real or alive as anybody. But your brain will not "invent" some sort of attribute or feature; it must've experienced it first. For instance, have you ever seen a dinoflagellate through the microscope in science class? If not, don't count on ever seeing one while peering through a microscope in your dreams.

 

[Mercutio]

Couldn't they possibly be mental constructs?
...

When you dream, your brain simply goes through this process of taking elements from that which has experienced, and mixing-matching them to create new things...characters or locations. If your mind's characters are strongly written, they can indeed seem real or alive as anybody. But your brain will not "invent" some sort of attribute or feature; it must've experienced it first. For instance, have you ever seen a dinoflagellate through the microscope in science class? If not, don't count on ever seeing one while peering through a microscope in your dreams.

Um...well, it kinda depends on what you mean by "invent". I have never flown in real life, but I have in dreams. Other than that (that is to say, other than taking your statement too literally), I very much agree with what you say (despite my aversion to the word "mental" when it is obvious you are refering to a physical process...).

It sounds very close to the "activation-synthesis" model of dreaming, which basically says that your brainstem is sending random signals, your cortex does what the cortex does best--it interprets them as best it can. The result is a dream. In its strictest form, the A-S model does not require, as your explanation does, that you have experienced something before. When you add what you have (which makes sense to do--after all, we should expect past experience to have strengthened some associations), it explains a great deal of dream material--both common and bizarre--without any real necessity of "meaning" in any deep sense.

 

[c4ts]

In reply to the thread title: According to the venerable lawyer and self-inflating moron, Victor Zammit, dreams are made of soft fluffy fibres similar to cushion stuffing or torn bedsheets that psychic mediums pull out of their mouths while in a "trance".

The touch, the feel of ectoplasm.

 

[Iacchus]

The touch, the feel of ectoplasm.

Alright very funny.

Actually I don't really see what this has to with the dream state. Are you saying that this is what you see in your dreams or, possibly that you don't dream at all? I understand that there are some people who don't or, claim that they don't.