What about the religious organizations?

[snooziums]

What about the religious organizations?

Why is there so much protest against "psychics" and other para-science, yet there is so little against religion? (Not that I am support para-science personally).

Even if "psychics" do appear to make a lot of money "suckering" their clients, it is nothing compared to what the major religions to. Every week, most pastors and clergy make far more than any metaphysical person could dream of in a month.

1/3 of all colleges and schools in the US are Christian, and over 1/2 of the people in this country believe in God. Yet, there are no "New Age" schools or colleges.

"Psychics" claim to give you insight into parts of your future, and to what is making you not feel well. Yet, religious leaders are selling you an afterlife, the promise of a good life, if only you will submit to their God, and that through the power of miracles, you will be healed of everything.

In addition, they have you pray to an invisible God, which has not been proven. And if you do not do what their "scripture" says, then you will incur God's wrath.

However, there are almost no protests to organized religion. I have yet to hear of anyone suing a major religion, yet to hear of any protesters outside of any churches (that were not from another church), and very few sites on the Internet that protest religion.

So why are so many skeptics going after the insignificant stuff like para-science and psychics, when there are religious leaders and followers that are scamming literally billions out of so much? Why not stand up to the likes of Pat Robinson?

It is almost like religion is this "untouchable" subject for most skeptics, one that they do not want to address. I am not sure if this is out of fear, or some other reason.

Challenging the "psychics" will do little, if anything. And it will only make the religious supporters stronger, as they oppose anything that is related to meta-physical. So, by going after these and not religious ideas, we only make the religious stronghold even stronger. I am not saying stop opposing "psychics," just to go after the real problems.

So, my question is, why is there not so much more of a voice against the dangers of organized religion, before it is too late? How come there is not thousands of voices against the current injustices that are caused by religious leaders that are running this country, and the world? Maybe it is already too late?

 

[Laurence Powers]

They have a protective forcefield.

 

[zooloo]

Personally I have the same contempt for both parties.

Woo is woo however it's dressed up

 

[kitakaze]

(Not that I am support para-science personally)

Hooey or possibly horse$#!% may be the word you were looking for there. As for organized religion, I say whoever wants to role up their sleeves and take a crack at the human nature of faith knock yourselves out. Personally, I'm reminded of being a teenager and engaging far too patient street corner bible thumpers in theological spats but then later as an adult having a simple sort of respect for their gumption to suffer the teenage me's to try and find an ear. I'm then reminded of the pitiable sadness I felt when hearing a fervent young woman citing a friend bringing her a hamburger as the evidence of the power of prayer. But in general I try to keep in mind that for every horror perpetrated in the name of faith so quickly cited by the fervent skeptic there are equal if not far more instances of acts of kindness and goodwill. That said, how 'bout some positive suggestions about how to channel the human need to believe? Meanwhile, I'll just look for a bush to jump behind.

 

[snooziums]

Basically, I do not understand why skeptics see psychics, scientologists, and other fields of "New Age" studies or metaphysical as crazy, yet turn a blind eye to any religious activity. More people have died at the atrocities of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism than any "cult" could even dream of.

Yet, whenever a mega-church goes up, how many skeptics protest it? Just about none. While there are many letters to the editor in newspapers on how God is the only way, and why psychics go against God's demands, no one points out the dangers of religion.

I have written several letters to the editor pointing out the flaws in religion, and I was banned form ever writing any more letters to the editor. I protested the building of a mega-church in my area, stating that they were giving people false hope, and no one else wanted to even stand beside my protest, and even when I received death threats from the church, no one stepped up to back me up.

Religious interest groups are all over the place, and no one cares, not even the skeptics. They have more influence in the US government, and everyone just ignores the problem.

Well, I have done all I can do, and since no one else seems to care or not if the US or any other "modern" nation becomes a religious state, I guess I should not be surprised. I did my best, and I guess the religious organizations are going to win at this rate.

It is sad, but not surprising. Oh well.

 

[Floyd]

I totally agree with you, Snoozy. However I think Skeptics as a group are traditionally set up to debunk all the other woo out there. It's impossible to argue against someone who has complete faith in their God. Rationalist and Humanist societies tend to put the case against religion. Having said that, I think eventually religion will come to an end, and there have been a few books written recently about the topic, and more to come.

I wrote an article for the newspaper recently but recieved no reply. I'd like to think that's because it wasn't up to scratch in a literary way rather than the editors not liking the content. For what it's worth here it is:

Perspectives – The End of Religion​

The end of religion is coming. It may take a hundred years or it may be sooner, but it is inevitable when you think about how the philosophy of mankind has developed over recent times. Thanks to the new global community, and the current clash of Christian and Muslim ideologies, information and opinions about religion are being shared and discussed in a way never seen before. I can see only one eventual outcome, and that is the consigning of religion to the history books, and as far as I am concerned the sooner the better.
Religion evolved alongside the evolution of man. As early man became self-aware and began thinking about the environment around him, he wanted to know how the world worked and why things happen the way they do. So natural phenomena such as thunder and lightning became the work of a powerful superior being in the sky. Disease and catastrophe were attributed to evil spirits or a vengeful god. Sacrifices and offerings were given up to the gods to ensure a successful hunt or abundant harvest. Different cultures around the world developed their own spiritual belief systems and the associated traditions and ceremonies.
Stories and myths were built around these beliefs and some societies translated these stories into written form. The Old Testament, for example, was put together from various sources, then revised and edited many times over a period of several centuries. Then came the "prophets" such as Jesus and Muhammad, and new texts were written about their lives and teachings.
In Christianity’s case, it seems probable that a man named Jesus did exist two thousand years ago, but there is no evidence he (sic) performed miracles or was the Son of God. In fact, there is a possibility he never existed at all and that the gospel writers simply made him up, as the first gospels were not written until at least 60 years after Jesus’ death. This would imply Mathew, Mark, Luke and John lived to be at least 80 years old in a time when life expectancy would have been about 25 years.
In the 17th century a new era of enlightenment dawned, and science became the new way to explain how and why the world behaves the way it does. Since that time, a great number of age-old questions have been answered, countless lives saved through the use of modern medical practices, and the human race has thrived as never before.
So if science can explain our physical world, maybe religion can provide us with spiritual well-being. No doubt there are millions of people all over the world who take comfort in the belief that there is an invisible being out there somewhere guiding and protecting them. The fact remains that there is not a single shred of credible evidence that an interventionist and benevolent God exists. Theists are deluded in that they have only "faith" and unsubstantiated texts as a basis for their beliefs. Using this philosophy, I could say I believe in the tooth fairy because I have faith that she exists. In fact, I have more evidence for the existence of the tooth fairy than I do for the existence of God. When I was a kid, I used to wake up in the morning to find a 5-cent piece had magically replaced my lost tooth under my pillow. Thanks tooth fairy. I don’t recall any miracles performed by God, even though I went to church on Sunday and prayed every night.
Another argument believers use is the one of knowing they have a personal relationship with God. They feel God’s presence. They hear God talking to them. To these people I ask: What if you are imagining it? What if you want to believe so much in a higher power, your mind reinforces your beliefs? What if there really is no God? Not once during my Catholic upbringing did I hear a peep out of God. Maybe he only talks to some people but not others.
Should I be more tolerant of other’s religious beliefs? On the contrary, I think the time has come in this modern age to start strongly questioning any religious dogma. When you really think about it, the existence of religion in the 21st century is outrageous. Every believer thinks his or her particular form of religion is the one true path. I believe all religions are ridiculous, it’s just that some are more ridiculous than others. The idea that all religions must be treated with respect and their followers not criticised seems incongruous with the concept of the pursuit of truth and knowledge.
Throughout history, many wars have been fought and millions killed in the name of religious ideology, and it is still going on today. Perhaps if there was no more religion, as John Lennon once said, the world would be a more peaceful place.
But what if religion was eradicated; from where would we get our morals and values? Would the world collapse into a state of anarchy and debauchery? Of course not. Human beings are innately good. We have evolved to survive, and that means protecting each other when living in groups. We know the consequences of our actions; we have secular laws in place to keep order in society. Most of us know right from wrong without having to blindly follow the rules of some ancient text or high priest.
In places like South America the poor would no longer have to hand over their hard-earned meagre savings to a huge, mega-rich global corporation known as the catholic church. In fact, if the Pope and his cronies decided to cash up all their assets today, the cash generated would be more than enough to end world poverty for good.
What would happen to the billions of people throughout the world who rely on religion for guidance and inner peace? They might start thinking for themselves. They may realise their lives are controlled by their own thoughts and actions, and not by some invisible man in the sky. They may find more purpose and fulfilment in life by achieving things they want to achieve, rather than only doing things in the belief they will go to heaven when they die, 72 virgins or not. We may end up living in a world where rational and critical thinking is the norm, the pursuit of truth and knowledge is encouraged, and human beings live in a decent society not because of the rules of a non-existent deity, but because we have evolved to appreciate that world, and want to make it a better place.

 

[snooziums]

One serious problem with going after "psychics" and not the religious organizations is that any proven falsehoods of psychics will be claimed by the religious organizations as their own victory. It would make the fundamentalists so happy to see all psychics disprove so that they can say "see, we were right," and increase their following.

It is kind of like being in a tank with many small fish and one shark, the small fish being the paranormal claims and the shark being religion. You can go after all the fish you want, taking out as many as you can. But ignoring the shark in the meantime is not very wise, and it will sneak up behind you and rip you to shreds.


P.S. Floyd, can I please use your article for my arguments locally and other places on the Internet? I really liked what you said. I can cite you as well, just let me know what name to use.

 

[Flange Desire]

What about the religious organizations?

Why is there so much protest against "psychics" and other para-science, yet there is so little against religion? (Not that I am support para-science personally).

Even if "psychics" do appear to make a lot of money "suckering" their clients, it is nothing compared to what the major religions to. Every week, most pastors and clergy make far more than any metaphysical person could dream of in a month.

1/3 of all colleges and schools in the US are Christian, and over 1/2 of the people in this country believe in God. Yet, there are no "New Age" schools or colleges.

"Psychics" claim to give you insight into parts of your future, and to what is making you not feel well. Yet, religious leaders are selling you an afterlife, the promise of a good life, if only you will submit to their God, and that through the power of miracles, you will be healed of everything.

In addition, they have you pray to an invisible God, which has not been proven. And if you do not do what their "scripture" says, then you will incur God's wrath.

However, there are almost no protests to organized religion. I have yet to hear of anyone suing a major religion, yet to hear of any protesters outside of any churches (that were not from another church), and very few sites on the Internet that protest religion.

So why are so many skeptics going after the insignificant stuff like para-science and psychics, when there are religious leaders and followers that are scamming literally billions out of so much? Why not stand up to the likes of Pat Robinson?

It is almost like religion is this "untouchable" subject for most skeptics, one that they do not want to address. I am not sure if this is out of fear, or some other reason.

Challenging the "psychics" will do little, if anything. And it will only make the religious supporters stronger, as they oppose anything that is related to meta-physical. So, by going after these and not religious ideas, we only make the religious stronghold even stronger. I am not saying stop opposing "psychics," just to go after the real problems.

So, my question is, why is there not so much more of a voice against the dangers of organized religion, before it is too late? How come there is not thousands of voices against the current injustices that are caused by religious leaders that are running this country, and the world? Maybe it is already too late?

Scan around some of the other threads in this forum and you will see plenty.
Step on over to the politics or religion threads for instance.
And there are MANY athiest organisations worldwide that you might also like to check out.

Most of the athiest organisations do not 'attack' established religion for the simple reason that this achieves so little.
But good solid grass roots stuff like JREF tries to educate the broader population about the fraud of psychics and other small time woos - along with the bigger players and religions - and hopefully that gets out to the masses.
You see, the small time woos are not 'insignificant' ...
It is actually very important that their paranormal claims are disputed,
as to ignore them would just allow such silly ideas to spread (by being socially acceptible).

ps, your zenocentrism is showing just a tad - there is a world outside the US and wooisim is a worldwide - but yes i do agree with you that you've got it in bucketloads in your government.

 

[Flange Desire]

or even check out article 1 in todays commontary

 

[The Atheist]

You are talking my game!

The war is begun.

Speaking as a reltive newcomer to these forums, but a veteran campaigner against the sicko world of religion, WELCOME!

I have already hacked a few people off with my "kill religion at all costs" attitude, so you are preaching to the converted here!

Fight them on all fronts, get in their faces, ◊◊◊◊ on their bibles, qurans and holy scripts. I love you already and you are NOMINATED for that post!

Can I quote that on Extreme Atheists' Society?

 

[kitakaze]

OK, there's a few things here in this thread that I think should be addressed but I don't mean to offend if I seem the Devil's Advocate.

...and even when I received death threats from the church, no one stepped up to back me up.

I'm sorry snooziums but I'll be dead straight with you- I'm calling BS. I find your claim of multiple death threats from the newly opened mega-church highly dubious to say the least. In what form did these threats come? Verbal? Written? In whatever form they took did it occur to you after the first one to make some attempt to document them as evidence? If not, why? If that line of questioning angers you try to remember the board you're on.

I totally agree with you, Snoozy. Well, I can't say I do, totally. But as for your article, Floyd, I have some hopefully constructive criticism to offer.

Thanks to the new global community, and the current clash of Christian and Muslim ideologies, information and opinions about religion are being shared and discussed in a way never seen before.

A clash between Christian and Muslim ideologies may seem current to you but I don't think you'll find many here that share that opinion as it is anything but. And I don't see this 'new global community' contributing to a decline in religion but rather the opposite. Yeah, there's more people talking and I'm sure you'll agree that they don't all think like you. If not go chat up some fundies.

I can see only one eventual outcome, and that is the consigning of religion to the history books, and as far as I am concerned the sooner the better.

If that's the only outcome you can see I'd say you're vision is obscured in a 'can't see the forest for the trees type of way'.

In Christianity’s case, it seems probable that a man named Jesus did exist two thousand years ago, but there is no evidence he (sic) performed miracles or was the Son of God.

Jesus' existence is historical fact. Being the Messiah is the subject for another thread irrelevant to this discussion.

This would imply Mathew, Mark, Luke and John lived to be at least 80 years old in a time when life expectancy would have been about 25 years.

Sorry to be gruff but 25 years my foot.

Do your homework.When you really think about it, the existence of religion in the 21st century is outrageous.

Why, Floyd? Have you considered the matter carefully or...

Every believer thinks his or her particular form of religion is the one true path. I believe all religions are ridiculous, it’s just that some are more ridiculous than others.

...do you just believe so. As for the rest, Floyd; would you be offended if I asked your age? Don't get choked but in general it just seems a little juvenile. JMHO. Which brings me to...

You are talking my game!

The war is begun.

Speaking as a reltive newcomer to these forums, but a veteran campaigner against the sicko world of religion, WELCOME!

I have already hacked a few people off with my "kill religion at all costs" attitude, so you are preaching to the converted here!

Fight them on all fronts, get in their faces, ◊◊◊◊ on their bibles, qurans and holy scripts. I love you already and you are NOMINATED for that post!

Can I quote that on Extreme Atheists' Society?

...yeah, you. ◊◊◊◊ on their bibles, etc, eh? You might want some tissue for that snot nose punk thing you got there. If you don't get over that little personality tick and you drop outta high school and hit the streets you can tell 'em that at the Salvation Army. Otherwise you may want to find more constructive ways to engage people on issues you're passionate about. If you ever want to think a little harder about it 'passion' is a word you'll wanna remember.

 

[kitakaze]

Apologies to Floyd for the wacky quoting.

 

[The Atheist]

...yeah, you. ◊◊◊◊ on their bibles, etc, eh? You might want some tissue for that snot nose punk thing you got there. If you don't get over that little personality tick and you drop outta high school and hit the streets you can tell 'em that at the Salvation Army. Otherwise you may want to find more constructive ways to engage people on issues you're passionate about. If you ever want to think a little harder about it 'passion' is a word you'll wanna remember.

Honey, I probably left high school before you were born. You're showing your own immaturity by taking that literally, but yes I am at war with religion and if you don't like the attitude, you can always go for a long walk off a short pier.

As I've mentioned to a few other people, you can take a soft approach or whatever you think might work, I'll do my thing because I know it works, very simple. Your way is not the only way.

 

[kitakaze]

I'm sorry, I just looked at your profile and realized I'm addressing an adult. Catholic school pretty rough, eh? Turn that frown upside-down, sunshine. Anyway, I agree with the 'sceptic' part in your biography. You really do need that tissue don't you?

 

[The Atheist]

I'm sorry, I just looked at your profile and realized I'm addressing an adult. Catholic school pretty rough, eh? Turn that frown upside-down, sunshine. Anyway, I agree with the 'sceptic' part in your biography. You really do need that tissue don't you?

I'm glad you're not after the million, because your psychic powers are a little on the limited side.

No catholic schools, never attended church or Sunday school as a child, never raped by a priest; in fact religion has done me personally no harm whatsoever and as lifelong atheist, I have very little to do with churches, christians or preachers. Anything else? Or are you just going to rest on your laurels now that you've contributed exactly nothing to the discussion, other than a series of pathetic attempts to try and take your own self-annointed higher ground for your own feeble reasons.

Now, whose psyche were you evaluating and why?

 

[kitakaze]

I'm glad you're not after the million, because your psychic powers are a little on the limited side.

Well that just hurts, fool.

Anything else? Or are you just going to rest on your laurels now that you've contributed exactly nothing to the discussion, other than a series of pathetic attempts to try and take your own self-annointed higher ground for your own feeble reasons.

Now, whose psyche were you evaluating and why?

Well, it's your war, twit. War takes sacrifices, no? Yours are? Nice website, bigot. Too bad your sleeve doesn't match your tongue. Nice recruitment speech, though. Where do I throw up? How 'bout Bahai? How 'bout Buddhism? Where's your pathetic Big Daddy theory then? Details just mess it all up, don't they? Keep flailing, it's funny. You are no different then those you rail against. The war's in your head and nowhere else. Decades have done you nothing but compound your delusions. Truly pathetic is the one who will not attempt dialogue to whom those they disagree. Way to go, fundie.

 

[snooziums]

By Floyd: It's impossible to argue against someone who has complete faith in their God. Flange Desire: Most of the athiest organisations do not 'attack' established religion for the simple reason that this achieves so little.

I wonder if that means that psychics and other meta-physical supporters still have more rationally in then than many religious followers do? Hmm...

Speaking as a reltive newcomer to these forums, but a veteran campaigner against the sicko world of religion, WELCOME! I have already hacked a few people off with my "kill religion at all costs" attitude, so you are preaching to the converted here!

Thank you. It is nice to see someone else that has the same concerns about the dangers of religion as I do.

I find your claim of multiple death threats from the newly opened mega-church highly dubious to say the least. In what form did these threats come? Verbal? Written?

Oh, just people showing up at my door and condemning me to Hell, and rather loudly, finding nasty writing all over my vehicle about eliminating me, and so on. Nothing major, I guess. I could post the police reports here, however what would be the point in that?

 

[geni]

You are talking my game!
The war is begun.

No it isn't. You can tell you are still breathing. The religious in the US have you heavily out numbered. They would win any war.

Fight them on all fronts, get in their faces, ◊◊◊◊ on their bibles, qurans and holy scripts. I love you already and you are NOMINATED for that post!

Ammusing. You appear to want war. The best you could hope for would be a quick defeat. You would mearly die. Others less milliant would probably be allowed to convert. A slow defeat would be far worse.

 

[Ginarley]

...snip...

So, my question is, why is there not so much more of a voice against the dangers of organized religion, before it is too late? How come there is not thousands of voices against the current injustices that are caused by religious leaders that are running this country, and the world? Maybe it is already too late?

It is because the most powerful political force on the planet is not any government but the various religious organisations. And they have a genuine base for power - they have convinced a large chunk of the world that if they don't follow their creed they will go to hell. All a government can threaten is a few years in prison or at worst death - whats that compared to an eternity of torment?

The problem is twofold:

Firstly while most people on this forum care about what is "right", a very large part of general society view finding what is "right" as about 300th on their list of priorities, behind getting kids to school, finding food, happiness or whatever else occupies them day to day. They face stress and hardship - and they find easy no-brain comfort in the teachings of religion - not because it is right but because it is there. Comfort is much higher on their priority list than being right and arguably rightly so.

Secondly let us approach this from a risk management perspective. Risk management tells us that to prioritise management of risks involves compared liklihood of effect to the magnitude of effect:

Risk 1: Going to hell for an eternity if you don't believe:
Likelihood: Low
Magnitude: High - an eternity in hell? No thanks!
Conclusion: Medium risk

Risk 2: Believing in a religion that isn't true.
Likelihood: High
Magnitude: Low (does it really matter?)
Conclusion: Medium risk

So from a rather simplified point of view, both are of equal risk. However if you start to incorporate the fact that so many people around you also believe then the only thing that happens is the liklihood goes up (from your perspective) of Risk 1 occuring and therefore the liklihood of Risk 2 goes down. As soon as that happens it becomes the rational decision (with limited information) to believe. While most people don't go through this thought process explicitly organised religions either subtly or bluntly rely very heavily on this concept.

Religions have nothing to fear from the truth because even if the chance of what they propse has only a low chance of being right, so trying to expose a religion on the grounds of truth will inevitably fail, and it is really the only weapon atheists have in the fight. We are too small to fight them directly, and too disorganised to disrupt proceedings with any effect. And arguing the truth will never compete with comfort.

The criminal injustices propagated by religion are often lost because they only effect a small number of people relative to the entire religious organisation - so the momentum of the religion is maintained even if small groups are not doing what they should. And the base of the christian religion in particular is that its ok not to be perfect - you will be forgiven. So even if the church itself screws up - thats ok!

[/brain dump]

G.

BTW: I don't think we should stop trying to bring them down - but its important to realise it isn't going to happen soon or easily and it will have to be done incrementally and methodically.

 

[The Atheist]

Well, it's your war, twit. War takes sacrifices, no? Yours are?

Time, money. Yours?

Nice website, bigot...

Thanks, people love it!

Too bad your sleeve doesn't match your tongue. .

Sorry, but that metaphor just completely escapes me, if you're asking about actions vs words, as mentioned above, I put time and money into something. I measure my results by, RESULTS. What is it you do again? (aside from write trite baloney, that is)

Nice recruitment speech, though. .

Thanks.

Where do I throw up? .

I find the font a great place for that, or if you can't get in, the front doorstep is ok.

How 'bout Bahai? How 'bout Buddhism? Where's your pathetic Big Daddy theory then? .

If you've been to the website, you should have noted the: "we are equal opportunity abusers of religion". It isn't kidding.

Details just mess it all up, don't they? Keep flailing, it's funny. .

Details such as? Proving the non-existence of god/allah/vishnu/buddha/santa?

You are no different then those you rail against.

No, apart from the fact that I argue from a point of reality, sanity, common-sense and failure to believe in Santa. I mentioned respect earlier - either in this post or elsewhere - religion doesn't deserve respect, it deserves disrespect. I'm happy to provide it.

The war's in your head and nowhere else. Decades have done you nothing but compound your delusions. Truly pathetic is the one who will not attempt dialogue to whom those they disagree. Way to go, fundie.

Oh dear, oh dear, to be so young, so righteous, so politically correct.

The front line of the war is the world's media. This is but one of many places I write, but certainly the one with the smallest audience. Possibly the most entertaining place, but very much smaller than any other I am involved with - aside from a couple of sports sites. I try to reserve my best and most vitriolic pieces for this country's largest broadsheet newspaper, to which I am a frequent contributor. Readership of 350,000 gives a slightly different feel to in here, but I figure that most people in here are out of nappies and can handle a bit harder message than a family/business oriented newspaper or national radio audience.

I attempt dialogue with anyone rational enough to engage in dialogue with - hell, I'm even engaging you in it! - but I refuse to engage in "dialogue" with some half-brain who thinks the universe is just a giant conspiracy run by a bloke called god. If I could see through that rubbish as a small child brought up in a christian family, I'm not going to have much time or respect for people who still think Santa comes down the chimney once a year.

You call that fundie and deluded, I call it refusal to suffer fools. Now you go engage in dialogue with a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon for a month or two and get back to me.

Hey, I see my guess was right about the age. You were born just after I left high-school!