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We've Normalised China

3point14

Pi
3point14
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
23,077
We do business with the Chinese government to make money.

This is a photo I'd never seen before taken in June of 1989 in Tiananmen Square. A disturbing image. You have been warned.

https://i.redd.it/mbn5z9cr5qr31.jpg


This is a heartbreaking documentary made in 2005:

https://vimeo.com/44078865

When, on the anniversary of the massacre, a journalist asks people if they know what day it is. If you've never seen people living in fear, then watch this.


My question is, is morality dead? Are western, apparently civilised democries now so overcome with the desire for cheaper everything and more profit that they are now incapable of international action and only capable of taking the path of most profit? Are China (and others with similar human rights records) now so embedded in the international economy that we can only shrug our shoulders at government sponsored murder and violence against their own and other peoples that we can only shrug and go back to playing WoW or Overwatch?
 
China hasn't normalized itself, which is one of the reasons why it hates being labeled by outsiders.
Most terrible policies are attempts at forcing social unity in the knowledge that it will be a constant battle that they will eventually lose.
 
China's been normalized all along. Remember the Great Leap Forward? The Cultural Revolution? The Korean War? The secession of Taiwan?

China didn't suddenly turn evil three years ago, and now we've normalized it. China has *always* been this way, and the rest of the world has pretty much always looked for ways to go along to get along with China. Hell, even the Tiananmen Square massacre was recognized for what it was at the time. We didn't let that stop us from trying to keep things cordial, though.
 
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The problem is that some people naively thought that China becoming mercantilist would make it become a free market, rights respecting, democracy. And so it received most favored nation trading status etc.

As evidence mounted that it was not liberalizing, but instead becoming a mixture of nationalism, totalitarian and corporatism (I.e. the next world power is pure fascism) a lot of our corporations and politicians have too much at stake in business as usual to stand up to it.
 
Giz said:
The problem is that some people naively thought that China becoming mercantilist would make it become a free market, rights respecting, democracy. And so it received most favored nation trading status etc.

As evidence mounted that it was not liberalizing, but instead becoming a mixture of nationalism, totalitarian and corporatism (I.e. the next world power is pure fascism) a lot of our corporations and politicians have too much at stake in business as usual to stand up to it.
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But Milton Friedman said...
 
Giz said:
The problem is that some people naively thought that China becoming mercantilist would make it become a free market, rights respecting, democracy. And so it received most favored nation trading status etc.

As evidence mounted that it was not liberalizing, but instead becoming a mixture of nationalism, totalitarian and corporatism (I.e. the next world power is pure fascism) a lot of our corporations and politicians have too much at stake in business as usual to stand up to it.
Click to expand...

It's the Aspirational Peace Prize thing. We want them to behave better, so we reward them for behaving better, on the theory that this will encourage them to earn the reward already given. Then when that doesn't work, we blame the people who said it wouldn't work. Probably the best case study for this is North Korea, which has evolved a sophisticated multi-generational grift around aggressively cycling this dynamic.
 
3point14 said:
We do business with the Chinese government to make money.

This is a photo I'd never seen before taken in June of 1989 in Tiananmen Square. A disturbing image. You have been warned.

https://i.redd.it/mbn5z9cr5qr31.jpg


This is a heartbreaking documentary made in 2005:

https://vimeo.com/44078865

When, on the anniversary of the massacre, a journalist asks people if they know what day it is. If you've never seen people living in fear, then watch this.


My question is, is morality dead? Are western, apparently civilised democries now so overcome with the desire for cheaper everything and more profit that they are now incapable of international action and only capable of taking the path of most profit? Are China (and others with similar human rights records) now so embedded in the international economy that we can only shrug our shoulders at government sponsored murder and violence against their own and other peoples that we can only shrug and go back to playing WoW or Overwatch?
Click to expand...

Yes.
 
Singling out China for atrocious events against people is quite pointed.
Especially when nearly every place on earth has a bit of it in their own history. Some is recent memory and a lot of it ancient but it happened.

If not for global trade a good portion of the lifestyle of everyone would be completely different. China is a part of that as a major player, but not the only one.
 
8enotto said:
Singling out China for atrocious events against people is quite pointed.
Especially when nearly every place on earth has a bit of it in their own history. Some is recent memory and a lot of it ancient but it happened.

If not for global trade a good portion of the lifestyle of everyone would be completely different. China is a part of that as a major player, but not the only one.
Click to expand...


Is it poor form to quote myself? I'm going to do it anyway.

3point14 said:
Are China (and others with similar human rights records) now so embedded...
Click to expand...
 
3point14 said:
We do business with the Chinese government to make money.

This is a photo I'd never seen before taken in June of 1989 in Tiananmen Square. A disturbing image. You have been warned.

https://i.redd.it/mbn5z9cr5qr31.jpg


This is a heartbreaking documentary made in 2005:

https://vimeo.com/44078865

When, on the anniversary of the massacre, a journalist asks people if they know what day it is. If you've never seen people living in fear, then watch this.


My question is, is morality dead? Are western, apparently civilised democries now so overcome with the desire for cheaper everything and more profit that they are now incapable of international action and only capable of taking the path of most profit? Are China (and others with similar human rights records) now so embedded in the international economy that we can only shrug our shoulders at government sponsored murder and violence against their own and other peoples that we can only shrug and go back to playing WoW or Overwatch?
Click to expand...

Well, the wannabe liberals and the left in general has been a supporter of national soverignty and non-intervention. "It's an internal Chinese matter, let them sort it out".

At least that's how it works with Iran, Iraq and many others. "Leave them alone, it's an internal matter" is the typical mantra. But to do so with China is now morally depraved?

McHrozni
 
3point14 said:
Is it poor form to quote myself? I'm going to do it anyway.
Click to expand...

The answer is yes, China, the USA, the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Canada, Australia, etc etc are indeed embedded in the international economy.
 
3point14 said:
Just a well noted reddit post that'll scare the willies out of ya.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/dhxgx6/a_chinese_take_on_this/f3t6nka/
Click to expand...

I'll just address this part:

And just a thought, how many countries have China invaded ever?

PRC:
- Tibet, 1950
- South Korea, 1950
- Taiwan, 1954, 1958 (naval standoff only)
- Tibet, 1958
- Burma, 1960
- India, 1962
- Vietnam (active assistance only) 1965
- India, 1967
- Soviet Union, 1969 (border clashes only)
- South Vietnam, 1974 (Parcel islands)
- Vietnam (now unified), 1979
- Vietnam, 1979 (second attempt)
- Taiwan, 1996 (naval standoff only due to US intervention)
- Vietnam, Malaysia, Philliphines, 2012 (Spratley islands only)

For a country priding themselves on peace and noninvolvement they seem to rank rather highly. It's a pity too few people ever seek to verify their claims.

McHrozni
 
Since we're posting links, the PBS Frontline documentary "The Tank Man" is very well done, too.
 
Frank Newgent said:
I've spent time in China six times now. It's way more interesting than ISF.
Click to expand...

Isn’t that, morally, a bit like saying “I’ve spent time in apartheid South Africa six times. It’s way more interesting than ISF.” ?
 
Like it or not (and a lot of people seem to not like it) China is there and isn't going any where and is a massive trading outlet.

Might as well try to get on, while hopefully having a bit of influence on their policys

The US criticising them for starting wars is also quite humorous
 
McHrozni said:
I'll just address this part:

And just a thought, how many countries have China invaded ever?

PRC:
- Tibet, 1950
- South Korea, 1950
- Taiwan, 1954, 1958 (naval standoff only)
- Tibet, 1958
- Burma, 1960
- India, 1962
- Vietnam (active assistance only) 1965
- India, 1967
- Soviet Union, 1969 (border clashes only)
- South Vietnam, 1974 (Parcel islands)
- Vietnam (now unified), 1979
- Vietnam, 1979 (second attempt)
- Taiwan, 1996 (naval standoff only due to US intervention)
- Vietnam, Malaysia, Philliphines, 2012 (Spratley islands only)

For a country priding themselves on peace and noninvolvement they seem to rank rather highly. It's a pity too few people ever seek to verify their claims.

McHrozni
Click to expand...


The whole "China has never invaded another country" myth does not bear close examination.
 
Maybe Trump's machinations will make the Chinese allow their currency value to float on the world market. Change is coming. In 3,2,1,...
 
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