"Western" science

[thaiboxerken]

Why is this term "western" used so much by believers to describe real science and real medical practices? Is it a way of invoking an emotion in all non-western people that gets them to resent science and medicine? Are they really ignorant that real science and medicine is practiced all over the world and not just "the west"?

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

...well, that's just because you need some 1000+ years old oriental stuff if you want to balance your positive energies, and "western science" just hasn't discovered these undetectable (by the unitiated who are not spiritually enlightened enough) energies, OR the multinational medical industry and all western governments and their oriental pawns are just covering up such discoveries because the evil processed foods and medical industries would loose their profits if the truth about these wonderful things came out. I mean, its obvious and proven and all, ain't it?

PS: Most of these energies are actually detectable, using this device:

 

[thaiboxerken]

I think it's the woo-woo quacks and credulous believers trying to spread distrust of real science and medicine that is built from a distrust of capitalism and authorities.

 

[Sloe_Bohemian]

Don't discount old-fashioned racism... not on the part of the people being labeled Western/Critical-Thinking/Skeptical/Educated, but on the part of those that want to associate their lack of (scientific) understanding with grandiose philosophies or traditions.

They easily associate Western thinking with modern science because in their minds... they don't consider scientists outside of European ethnic groups to be much more than lackeys or waiters... Or maybe it starts with the way that schools in "western nations" tend to teach that all good scientific thought developed in a straight line from the Greeks to the present day... and the woo-woo's accept this myth but not the value of what has been learned from critical thinking and science. Safely relying on the nutritional and medical safety afforded to them by science, they explore the "mysterious" world of woo-woo and proclaim their allegiance to "Eastern" philosophy.

They take comfort in something they consider to be "other"... something outside of themselves and outside of the lives of their parents, teachers, bosses, or other authority figures...

I think it's worth considering the idea that most woo-woo's have a very condescending view of those non-Westerners they claim to revere.

Certainly seems like a worthy discussion point anyway.

 

[Rolfe]

Interesting how the homoeopathy proponents also sneeringly denounce "Western" medicine as if it had nothing to do with them. As Geni remarked, is their geography as bad as their physics? Last time we looked, Germany was the bit to the right of France....

Rolfe.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Maybe the idiots think that Asian and Oriental cultures are just so cool that somehow the laws of reality don't apply. I was born in japan, and have been there many times.. yet science still prevails as the method of gaining new, and useful knowledge.

 

[geni]

The phrase gets interesting when they use terms such as "the western mind". This could be argued as techncaly raceism.

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

Joking aside, I think some of it may also stem from the introduction of oriental (and other) metaphysical mythology by the theosophical society of Mme. Blavatsky, which seemed to coincide well with a boom in "spiritualism" well over 100 years ago, the TM movement, Deepak Chopra, Fritjof Capra and general impatience (intellectual lazyness) with the laborious efforts required to achieve results with real science. Magic gives the impression of fulfilling needs for instant gratification.

I also think there's simply too little education about critical thinking being taught in schools, and a lot of support, intentional or not, for magical thinking and general woo by the mass media (it sells because it appears to provide instant gratification).

Moreover, the SCAM proponents really are good at appealing to people's emotions, not least by instilling fear of scientifically based medicine. It's remarkable that most woo and New Age pseudoscience relates to mental and physical health, with very little addressing anything else in the universe, without implicating...mental and physical health. It's all nicely subjective...

 

[steenkh]

I once read a history of Japan, written by a Japanese. It was very interesting to read that when western medicine was introduced by the Dutch, many Japanese doctors were fascinated by this, and a western school of medicine developed. The shogun tried to suppress it, but never quite succeeded.

The interesting bit was that these Japanese doctors were drawn to the western teachings because they worked! The Dutch observed the effects of their cures, and rejected those that did not work. And they did not theorise about how the body was constructed, but they actually opened dead bodies and took a look for themselves!

This is very refreshing compared to the romanticism that is usually connected to oriental wisdom.

I also note that Chinese today, if they need surgery, rather prefer the western kind of anaesthetic than the centuries old methods of acupuncture.

Steen

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

The neighbors grass is always greener...

Having said that, it surprises me a little that even back in the times of the Shogun that European medicine was already becoming convincing, considering its content of superstition, ignorance and directly dangerous practices back then. Fortunately, the scientific method is what sorts the wheat from the chaff - something the woos willingly ignore.

 

[steenkh]

Having said that, it surprises me a little that even back in the times of the Shogun that European medicine was already becoming convincing, considering its content of superstition, ignorance and directly dangerous practices back then.

Yes, it surprised me too. The first major work of the Dutch school was Kaitai Shinsho (The New Anatomi) that appeared in 1774 and was a translation of a Dutch book of anatomy.

My source is "Geschichte Japans", Kiyoshi Inoue, Campus Verlag 1975, p. 272.

 

[T'ai Chi]

I would assume "western science" is the science that arose from western (ie. to differentiate European from other) mathematics. There were obviouslly similarities, but European mathematics developed a higher level of rigor earlier on.

 

[Skeptic]

They don't consider scientists outside of European ethnic groups to be much more than lackeys or waiters...

But that's not the point; regardless of where a physicist or a biologist was born or raised (and many, many of them are now non-westerners) they are doing science according to the western tradition of experiment, verification, quantification, falsification, etc. which was developed (in rudimentary form) by the Greeks and then rediscovered and vastly improved by the Europeans of the Reneissance and early modern period, leading to the scientific revolution that still continues today.

Or maybe it starts with the way that schools in "western nations" tend to teach that all good scientific thought developed in a straight line from the Greeks to the present day...

It didn't develop in a straight line. But it is nevertheless the fact that the discovery of the scientific method (as opposed to individual scientific discoveries) is a European, western achievement.

What this does not mean is that since it was discovered by westerners, only westerners can do western science. That's a bit like saying that only Egyptians have what it takes to build pyramids. Just look at any university faculty that's worth their salt and you'll see that this isn't the case... and it is, above all, the scientists themselves that know it.

I think it's worth considering the idea that most woo-woo's have a very condescending view of those non-Westerners they claim to revere.

Indeed so. Think of von Daniken's "ancient astronauts" nonsense. Aliens must have helped the technologically primitive Mayans and Egyptians... but not the not-less-techonologically-primitive Greeks and Romans, or the dark ages Europeans who built cathedrals. It is only the darkies that need a "push" from aliens to achieve what white people do as a matter of course.

 

[evilgoldtoesock]

The hindu and buddhist energy systems (chakras, psychic energy centers) can be seen as abstractions that convey the PERCEPTION of the body, particularly when a person is involved in an intense meditative practice. You FEEL your heart chakra, it isn't really "there."

While these are certainly useful ideas to people who enjoy meditation, they have no medical application. Sorry to all those new-agers, but you can't cure any serious disease with this stuff.

"Eastern" medicinal practices, as far as I know, focus more on mental health than physical. They aren't medicine per say, rather they are rituals designed to enforce certain philosophical ideals. They aren't necessarily bad, but they are not for everyone...and shouldn't be marketed as so.

 

[Sloe_Bohemian]

They don't consider scientists outside of European ethnic groups to be much more than lackeys or waiters...

But that's not the point; regardless of where a physicist or a biologist was born or raised (and many, many of them are now non-westerners) they are doing science according to the western tradition of experiment, verification, quantification, falsification, etc. which was developed (in rudimentary form) by the Greeks and then rediscovered and vastly improved by the Europeans of the Reneissance and early modern period, leading to the scientific revolution that still continues today.

I agree that a logical understanding of "western" science is not based on the ethnic makeup of the practitioner, but it's my suggestion that to the woo-woo's it is. They may be lilly-white, but they take on affectations of what they've seen in Charlie Chan movies and likewise, they assume a rational Asian is an oddity and has been 'corrupted'. Most would be shocked to learn that Chinese "healers" use morphine instead of needles as sedatives.

Or maybe it starts with the way that schools in "western nations" tend to teach that all good scientific thought developed in a straight line from the Greeks to the present day...

It didn't develop in a straight line. But it is nevertheless the fact that the discovery of the scientific method (as opposed to individual scientific discoveries) is a European, western achievement.
What this does not mean is that since it was discovered by westerners, only westerners can do western science. That's a bit like saying that only Egyptians have what it takes to build pyramids. Just look at any university faculty that's worth their salt and you'll see that this isn't the case... and it is, above all, the scientists themselves that know it.


Sure, the Greeks were pretty neat, albeit they were more of an Eastern Mediterranean culture (near East) than a Western culture... but I have no delusions about the importance of the Enlightenment and what is called Western Science. It's A-OK in my book! The point I was trying to make here is one you use below... that cultures in MesoAmerica, Egypt, Asia, Ethiopia, etc had remarkable scientific achievements in all fields throughout the history of mankind... and without input from Europe or aliens. To pretend only Europeans made advancements in sciences like engineering or medicine and that all other cultures went straight from caveman to shaman and never any farther is inaccurate... to say the least.

I think it's worth considering the idea that most woo-woo's have a very condescending view of those non-Westerners they claim to revere.

Indeed so. Think of von Daniken's "ancient astronauts" nonsense. Aliens must have helped the technologically primitive Mayans and Egyptians... but not the not-less-techonologically-primitive Greeks and Romans, or the dark ages Europeans who built cathedrals. It is only the darkies that need a "push" from aliens to achieve what white people do as a matter of course.

And there was peace and agreement throughout the land.