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Weak Quantum Theory

Zombified

Graduate Poster
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Messages
1,366
Several days ago, Rolfe was kind enough to provide me with links to several papers which purport to explain how high-dilution homeopathic remedies work in terms of quantum mechanics.

Although I've been busy this week, tonight I finally got to the first of the bunch: Weak Quantum Theory: Complementarity and Entanglement in Physics and Beyond by Atmanspacher, Romer, and Walach. This paper is cited by most or all of the others, so I decided to look at it first even though it does not discuss homeopathic remedies. This is a bit long, and I might be the only person interested in it, but what the hell.

The Authors
I don't know much about the authors or their qualifications, so I won't say too much. Atmanspacher mentions PEAR on his website. Walach is the author of another truly surreal paper which I may discuss later.

1. Introduction
In the introduction to the paper, the authors discuss their motivations for developing Weak Quantum Theory. Basically, they are attempting to formulate a theory of measurements of systems which is not restricted to physics, but which retains certain features of quantum mechanics, specifically, entanglement and complementarity. They claim that the theory might be applicable to psychology, philosophy and "psychophysical situations" whatever that means. Perhaps the latter refers to the paranormal, but it is not explicitly stated.

2. Complementarity and Entanglement: some examples
The authors are fascinated with the quantum mechanical phenomena of complementarity and entanglement. Unfortunately, they conflate these two somewhat, which turns out to be a problem later.

Complementarity is one way of describing incompatible measurements. The best illustration is that old standby, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle: in quantum mechanics, you can't precisely know both where a particle is and what its momentum is simultaneously. Measuring one disturbs the other. Actually, this can be illustrated with a strictly classical example: a wave with a definite frequency (which corresponds to momentum in quantum mechanics) is of infinite extent, whereas a spatially-localized pulse requires adding up waves of a bunch of different frequencies, so that "the" frequency is not precisely defined.

Entanglement, on the other hand, refers to the phenomenon of correlations between what appears to be seperate parts of a system. The classic example is spin correlation. When two particles are produced as a pair, and fly off in different directions, measuring the spin of one particle will determine the spin of the other particle. This is because of conservation of angular momentum, in this example: the total spin after the particles are produced must equal the total spin before. Entanglement is only mysterious because the actual value isn't determined until the measurement is actually performed, but the two particles will be consistent even if there isn't time for a signal to get from one particle to the other. This is what is meant by non-locality in quantum mechanics.

When you put entanglement together with complementarity (or more precisely, incompatible observables) you get interesting correlations between two different measurements on the pair, but that doesn't mean entanglement and complementarity are the same thing.

In any case, enough of that digression; back to WQT.

The authors begin by explaining, to some degree, the familiar complementary relationship between position and momentum. They do allude to entanglement, and briefly switch to the example of photon spin, but do not really explain the difference between the two properly. They also mention energy-time complementarity.

One particularly embarressing error is referring to "spin-1/2 systems, i.e. spin measurements on photons." Photons are spin-1 particles; electrons (for example) are spin-1/2.

The example of frequency-time uncertainty (which I mentioned above) is also introduced. This is the classical wave example I described above. Mathematically speaking, this is very much like position-momentum uncertainty in simple 1D, linear systems, since position and momentum are actually related by Fourier transforms as well. Like position vs. momentum, going from the time domain to the frequency domain resembles (in fact, is) a change of basis in a vector space. When (loosely) applied to quantum mechanical particles, you can multiply frequency by Planck's constant to get energy, and this gives you energy-time uncertainty. The authors go on to say that this doesn't imply anything like quantum mechanical entanglement, but of course it doesn't: incompatible observables and entanglement are different things.

Before going on to more bizarre examples, the paper mentions some information theory related to chaotic systems; the authors use this as a more significant example, later, so I'll come back to it.

Finally, the section segues to "examples" that have nothing to do with physics at all, or, for that matter, mathematics. References are made to "conscious and unconscious processes," Jungian psychological states, philosophical propositions, and a host of other odd notions. Here this section totally falls apart. Nowhere do the authors explain what complementarity (in the sense of incompatible measurement outcomes) or entanglement mean in the context of these "systems", nor why we should expect these systems to have such features even if they were meaningful ideas. The authors do not even motivate the inclusion of these subjects, let alone develop them. They are simply dropped in.

3. Algebraic quantum theory in a nutshell
The authors (actually, I expect it was just one of them) then go on to summarize a formal theory of quantum mechanics in terms of algebras of linear operators. This is a bit more formal than the physicist's usual Dirac notation, but if you're familiar with the subject, it is pretty easy to pick up the notation and perform the mental construction of a Hilbert space representation.

4. Weak quantum theory
This ought to be the second most interesting part of the paper.

In this section, the authors define the axioms of a generalized theory of measurements of a system. Instead of defining measurement outcomes as numbers and the spectrum as the set of possible outcomes, they begin with the spectrum as an arbitrary set, and define measurement outcomes, not necessarily numbers, as elements of the spectrum. This is an interesting and unfortunately understated point, and the section would have been much clearer had they been more explicit about it. Once that is understood, the rest of the "set theory" makes sense; there don't appear to be any big surprises.

The authors identify several features of WQT to differentiate it from quantum mechanics.

First, they bring up that it does not contain Planck's constant. This is specious for two reasons. First, their theory is not numerical, it is a set theory, so of course it does not contain numbers. Second, if you go through section 3 (real quantum mechanics) you won't find Planck's constant there, either. This is because Planck's constant is not actually fundamental to the theory - it's a matter of how the operators are defined. In fact, Planck's constant is a matter of units. Physicists occasionally use "natural units" where <del>h</del> and c are both set to 1 with no dimensions, and measure energy and mass in units of 1/length.

Second, the authors point out that observables don't add along with several implications. This pretty much boils down to not having numerical measurements as well, and life would have been simpler had they simply said so at the outset. But this introduces a very serious problem: how are we to interpret the action of an operator on a state variable? The authors don't allow for a probability interpretation without additional axioms (in fact, they explicitly state that some systems don't lend themselves to probabilities, and disturbingly refer to such airy notions as interpreting art or feeling an emotion), so its not clear what the theory would actually mean if you were able to define what your states and operators were. There is, unfortunately, no answer to this problem. The paper never presents any hint of how results in WQT are to be interpreted.

Third, say the authors, there are no Bell's inequalities. Again, this is the difference between sets and numbers.

Finally, the authors show how to add axioms to recover conventional, numerical quantum mechanics.

5. Complementarity and entanglement in weak quantum theory: two applications
The authors finish the paper with two examples. This should be the best part of the paper, because we finally get to see how this new set theory is applied to a real, nonphysical example. Sadly, this section is a complete loss.

The first example, as mentioned above, has to do with information in chaotic systems. This was apparently developed from an earlier paper by one of the authors (Atmanspacher). Although the section is supposed to be about applications of WQT, the new theory is never mentioned or applied here; what math is shown is just more examples of non-commuting operators. This example gives no insight into WQT.

The second example is even worse: countertransference in psychotherapy! The authors do not even make a pretense of showing math here. It is just talk. The authors draw the analogy (metaphor?) of an entangled system consisting of the patient's and the therapist's states of mind. I'm not even sure what this is supposed to suggest: are the authors really implying that some non-material process is responsible for transferring the patient's state of mind to the therapist's? As in telepathy? Perhaps they merely intend to use WQT as a metaphor or model for subliminal, nonverbal cues the therapist picks up on, but if so, this seems awfully obscure. It certainly doesn't give any insight into how to apply WQT or what its good for.

Again, there is no insight gained as to how to apply or interpret WQT given in this example. The paper concludes without showing a single example of constructing observable operators and evaluating whether observables are compatible or not. There are no examples in the paper that don't involve convential linear algebra.

Finally...
To summarize, WQT is a cute little set theory, but it appears to have no utility. Certainly in this paper, there are no examples of applying it, no attempt to explain how to construct operators or interpret outcomes, nothing that shows what the theory is actually good for.

Most importantly, the authors utterly fail to demonstrate that WQT is applicable to any problem they are interested, and for that matter, that the problems they are interested in even require anything resembling WQT. WQT is a toy, and the authors did not even bother to have any fun with it.
 
Interesting Work, the papers went right over my head and i suspect thats part of the idea.

Nice analysis.
 
In this respect, it may be more useful to try to find out the effect of taste/sensation of smaller/smallest particles of any molecule on its contact with any sensory part of the human bodies?
 
Stop confalting science with pseudo-science, pseudo-science is a homeopathic dilution of real science where no science is actualy left.
 
I just skimmed the WQT paper a few months back. Seemed very woo-woo from just a brief look at it. I know not to trust most professional physicists and what they think they know about QM, so I'm sure not going give these guys any time.

There's a whole lot of their papers listed here.

Brian Josephson turns up in the seventh book, I noticed.
 
Kumar said:
In this respect, it may be more useful to try to find out the effect of taste/sensation of smaller/smallest particles of any molecule on its contact with any sensory part of the human bodies?

We already know this.
 
wipeout said:
I know not to trust most professional physicists and what they think they know about QM, so I'm sure not going give these guys any time.
Why do you think 'most' physicists don't understand QM? I've never met any woo-woo physicists. The physicists I've met are just as unhappy about guys like Josephson as any skeptic.

The bad rep quantum mechanics has for being bizarre and mysterious is mostly inept PR and bad popularizations.
 
Zombified said:
Why do you think 'most' physicists don't understand QM? I've never met any woo-woo physicists. The physicists I've met are just as unhappy about guys like Josephson as any skeptic.

The bad rep quantum mechanics has for being bizarre and mysterious is mostly inept PR and bad popularizations.

Sorry, I should have just said that I only trust the specialists in quantum theory, and no-one else and that this includes most physicists. From reading specialists, I know the standard literature most people learn from says things which are not entirely true or as well-founded as they are presented... :)
 
geni said:


We already know this.
Pls discuss 'can be possible' theory.

Let us try in this manner. Can sub-atomic particles be created/formed just by potentization process & if possible, can they be stored in homeopathic remedies for long time?
 
Kumar said:
Let us try in this manner. Can sub-atomic particles be created/formed just by potentization process & if possible, can they be stored in homeopathic remedies for long time?
No, not particles.

Some advocates of homeopathy believe that remedies involve organizing the particles in the solvent in some interesting way, even after all the particles of the "tincture" have been diluted away.

But the homeopaths cannot explain how this mechanism is supposed to work, what makes it in the first place, or why such organization would have therapeutic effect. And if any wierd organization did exist in a solvent, they would generally be very short-lived. Heat would destroy such organization very quickly.
 
If potentization process can't produce/create any sub atomic particles & even though these are possible, they can't be stored in remedies substances as charged particles then what is the use of discussing the theory on Sub-atomic levels.

However we should not consider the active substance of remedy is being diluted away-- as carriers, water, lactose, alcohal & contaminations can also create some effects.

I therefore asked to study sensation/taste effects on physiology of body which seems to be the only possibility.
 
Kumar said:
If potentization process can't produce/create any sub atomic particles & even though these are possible, they can't be stored in remedies substances as charged particles then what is the use of discussing the theory on Sub-atomic levels.
An excellent question. Since there are a few homeopaths claiming that quantum mechanics "explains" homeopathy, somebody ought to consider those claims. But I would agree that quantum theory does not offer them much hope...
 
Zombified,

If we want to prove any thing in science we have to maintain its(science) current levels of testing technologies. Under this consideration we can't think Sub atomic theory as three questions are to be justified to this effect:-

1. If charged sub-atomic particles can be produced by potentization process?

2. If possible then if they can be stored as energy particles in remedies?

3. If above is possible then if & how these stored energy particles can produce effects as mentioned in homeopathic litretures?

I think it is not possible to awnser the above question at the present level of scientific available technologies.

Otoh I find some logic in my mentioning. Just looking at any beautiful young girl by any young boy or at flowers or any desired food can create some physiological changes in any person then why taste or sensation of any remedy can't create the homeopathic effects? It may be think off that smaller the particle more can be its sensation effect( a needle effect).
 
Kumar said:
1. If charged sub-atomic particles can be produced by potentization process?

No. IF you could you would need a radition suit every time you made a remedy

2. If possible then if they can be stored as energy particles in remedies?
no
3. If above is possible then if & how these stored energy particles can produce effects as mentioned in homeopathic litretures?

The above is not posible
I think it is not possible to awnser the above question at the present level of scientific available technologies.

I know that it is posible to answer the questions
 
Geni, you can pull skin from the hair.:)

Now, just tell me that:

If a diabetic type2 patient with higher blood sugar level just taste or see any sweat thing but nor take it inside--will it create some physiological effect for lowering the BS level or not?
 
Zombified said:
I suspect I'll regret asking, but do you have an example?

Yeah, sure. In the two-slit experiment, we get told that we can't assign a definite slit that the particle went through. Actually we can, but the measuring apparatus then goes into a macroscopic quantum superposition state (also "Schrodinger's Cat state"). Which is nice. :D

It's exactly the same experimental result... but two very different ways of looking at it on a bit of paper. The standard textbooks miss this other little bit of quantum fun. ;)

What is important is that looking at more complex experiments in a way with and without MQS states and putting the two views together results in a whole lot of the weirdness of standard QM.

That's what the Consistent Histories interpretation is about, rules that say when you can look at an experiment in one or another way and it makes sense, and not to put the two together or everything goes a bit nuts. That's fine for classical physics, but not for quantum.

Schrodinger's Cat starts playing with our minds if we don't pay it due attention and most people don't know to be careful of it lurking in their notepads.

All this doesn't really matter that much for most physicists as it all adds up to the same predictions and experimental results. :)

But with this in mind, how the results were arrived at is where we should beware of the standard literature and what it tells us...

Quantum physics should have a signpost... :D

"Beware of the Cat"
 
wipeout said:
Yeah, sure. In the two-slit experiment, we get told that we can't assign a definite slit that the particle went through. Actually we can, but the measuring apparatus then goes into a macroscopic quantum superposition state (also "Schrodinger's Cat state"). Which is nice.
Oh, no, not interpretation again.

First, this is hardly secret wisdom. Undergrad students go on about this stuff all the time, and professors invariably end up having to explain it. Two of the three undergraduate texts I have on my shelf discuss interpretation in a final, brief chapter, and one undergrad course I took suggested a collection of original papers on measurement as an optional text. That book contains Schrodinger's paper on his cat paradox. Physicists are, to the degree necessary, taught this stuff.

But it's true that very little time is wasted on interpretation. This is because interpretation is not really a big problem.

You are asserting this particular interpretation as if it were true, but in fact if its not experimentally distinguishable from the orthodox interpretation, then its irrelevant. You can't go saying that one way or the other is the "right" way to interpret quantum mechanics, if there's no way to distinguish experimentally.

In my opinion, an interpretation that involves measuring devices being in a mixed state misses the point about defining measurements operationally. But because this is interpretation we're talking about, that's not really important; you're free to adopt whatever interpretation floats your boat.

Physicists understand the theory of quantum mechanics just fine. Interpretation is not a matter of understanding, interpretation is a matter of philosophizing about and making analogies about.

This is where the problem comes in: people think quantum mechanics is wierd because the interpretations sound wierd. But the interpretations are not physics. They're metaphysics. As a result of these interpretation debates, people make up all sorts of strange things and claim, "well, quantum mechanics says so" and we end up with disasters like this paper I reviewed above and freaks like Deepak Chopra.

But that's not quantum mechanics. That's just people's stories about quantum mechanics. Skeptics need to understand the difference if they're going to deal with woo-woo claims about quantum mechanics.
 
My overall point could be summed up in the example that if these physics professors you speak of are explaining concepts like Schrodinger's Cat to their students but never mention decoherence once, then quite frankly I don't want to hear it because what they're saying isn't worth hearing.

Interpretation has developed significantly in the last 30 years and I think that skeptics should be made aware of this as I understand that most problems the orthodox interpretation featured which the woo-woos delighted in have been erradicated.
 
Kumar said:
Geni, you can pull skin from the hair.:)

If a diabetic type2 patient with higher blood sugar level just taste or see any sweat thing but nor take it inside--will it create some physiological effect for lowering the BS level or not?
I'm assuming that the "BS Level" to which you refer is the Blood Sugar Level (as opposed to any other interpretation of BS :D)

I I understand your post, you have asked whether just tasting something sweet will have an effect on someone with type 2 diabetes' blood suger level.

I would suggest not - otherwise artificial sweetners would have an effect. Of course it's not just sweet things which have an effect on blood sugar levels.
 

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