"We Don't Want No Stinkin' Aid" (Gaza)

[webfusion]

In another recent thread, there was some discussion about whether or not Israel would continue aid and assistance to the people in Gaza, despite the HAMAS taking over there.


Israel is trying hard to get food and supplies through ---- but the terrorists are trying their hardest to stop it.

The Kerem Shalom crossing into the Gaza Strip, which provides for humanitarian assistance to flow into the Strip during the present internal conflict, has been closed for two days, due to ongoing attempts by militants to carry out attacks against the facilities at the crossing, including shootings and mortar attacks. The main transfer crossing, at EREZ, is currently also under mortar attacks.

Some 80 trucks of food supplies crossed through SUFA Terminal into Gaza yesterday, providing the Strip with much more than the minimum daily requirements. The cargo shipment also included 600,000 plants for use by farmers in greenhouses in the Gaza Strip.
However IDF intelligence reports have warned that SUFA is the next target for terrorist attacks and it is uncertain how much longer it will remain open for traffic.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=22994&Cr=palestin&Cr1=

 

[MelBrooksfan]

Not surprising. Whichever group controls that crossing controls the aid influx and, therefore, quite a bit of supplies. Sucks for the other people getting caught up in this, though.

 

[webfusion]

Breaking News

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/876232.html
Israel attempts to activate KARNI terminal, sending through 5,000 tons of wheat.
"This is an important development for us at UNRWA because all of our materials come through Karni. We hope that this development today will lead to the permanent opening of Karni," said UNRWA spokesman Christopher Guinness.


Will the palestinians attack KARNI once again and force its closure? I would bet, yes.

Jihadists are making every attempt to keep the crossings into Gaza closed and thereby cause more problems to the innocent people living there. The terrorists were firing mortars and setting off explosives at Kerem Shalom, and are attempting to do the same at KARNI and EREZ, to prevent convoys from getting in from Israel.

The plain fact is they are hoping for a disproportionate response from Israel, and then plan on going ahead and parading in front of the world their dead and their suffering people. This was the tactic learned so well last summer in Lebanon, and the islamic terror organizations wish to repeat that scenario now.

 

[JJM 777]

Pro-Israel?

Somehow Israel grants a "right of return" for any Jew born anywhere. And denies the right of any Palestinian to return to the West Bank or Gaza, even if born there and officially listed as a refugee.

Apartheid rules.

 

[BPSCG]

Pro-Israel?

Somehow Israel grants a "right of return" for any Jew born anywhere. And denies the right of any Palestinian to return to the West Bank or Gaza, even if born there and officially listed as a refugee.

Apartheid rules.

Frankly, your post has nothing to do with the topic, but in any case, why don't the Palestinians just pick up and move to Siberia or the Sahara desert and claim their football field-sized plot of land that you've allocated them in your "A Better World Through Forced Relocation, Property Confiscation, and Forced Sterilization" program? After all, isn't one stinking desert as good as the next?

 

[webfusion]

Pro-Israel?

I am an Israeli citizen.
In your view, is being "pro-Israel" the relating of facts here regarding brutal actions and motives of our enemies?

Somehow Israel grants a "right of return" for any Jew born anywhere.

It's a law of my country. Our elected legislative body passed this law, and it was enacted on sensible humanitarian grounds.

• At the time of the measure's adoption in 1950, only five years had passed since the end of World War II and the Holocaust. These events caused incalculably large losses of family members and friends of Jews; the events also destroyed communities, and livelihoods. There was also a consistent pattern of persecution of Jews in virtually the entire Jewish diaspora.

Somehow, 'jewish rights' are objectionable to you?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

And denies the right of any Palestinian to return to the West Bank or Gaza, even if born there and officially listed as a refugee.

Except that Israel does not deny the 'right' of palestinians to migration, in or out, of Gaza or the West Bank. Thousands of palestinians annually come and go, routinely. Some cross into the West Bank from Jordan, some cross to Gaza from Egypt, and of course, Ben Gurion Airport (in Israel) processes palestinians wishing to enter or leave Gaza and the West Bank ----- they have to conform to the laws of the Authorities, however.
"Infiltration," "immigration," and "return" each carry particular legal and moral meanings that are sharply disputed.

Apartheid rules.

In Israel? Can you provide your evidence of this? C'mon, give us a fair chance to debunk your claim...

 

[JJM 777]

I am an Israeli citizen.

Be seder. Should have guessed that.

being "pro-Israel" the relating of facts here regarding brutal actions and motives of our enemies?

I was surprised to hear from you that _Palestinians_ are imprisoning themselves, while human rights organizations and indeed today's Jerusalem Post claims exactly the opposite:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...82951033288&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
http://www.btselem.org/english/Press_Releases/20070617.asp
http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0297.htm#Top
http://www.yeshgvul.org/index_e.asp

It's a law of my country. Our elected legislative body passed this law

Loe meshanneh klum.

Also South Africa used to have "laws in their country", passed by an "elected legislative". Not to mention that a well-known German gentleman with a funny small moustache was a democratically elected politician.

Somehow, 'jewish rights' are objectionable to you?

I have nothing against rights, if they are given to everyone equally.

Except that Israel does not deny the 'right' of palestinians to migration

????

What I hear in mainstream media (including Jerusalem Post) is that Israel does not even allow married couples to unite, if one lives in Palestine and the other one has a foreign passport. Upon leaving West Bank or Gaza, the foreign spouse never gets another visa to return to his/her spouse in the West Bank or Gaza.

I have personally spent three days in the prison cell of Ben Gurion airport. (It was back in 1998, I was travelling with very little money and they alleged that I was planning to work illegally.) The prison cell was full of Palestinians living abroad and trying to visit their relatives. No visa granted, so long and go back.

Thousands of palestinians annually come and go, routinely.

Come on, you must know that you are misrepresenting reality here. Tens if not hundreds of thousands are imprisoned in the territories, fearing travelling abroad because Israel probably would not allow them to return any more.

"Infiltration," "immigration," and "return" each carry particular legal and moral meanings that are sharply disputed.

Yes, I know that large crowds of African refugees are shamefully kept in Israeli prisons. Israel refuses to give them the status of refugees, which would require humane treatment of them. Instead some Hitler has invented calling them "infiltrators", which conveniently leads to a prison sentence.

This is Israel, and no, I am not impressed.

My two-week journey to Israel and Jordan last December is reported on this website:

http://www.co-ground.com/

 

[webfusion]

I was surprised to hear from you that _Palestinians_ are imprisoning themselves, while human rights organizations and indeed today's Jerusalem Post claims exactly the opposite:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle/ShowFull

That article is extremely disjointed -- with a ton of "we-said, they said" stuff that is virtually impossible to parse.

Israel is not going to give the right time of day to HAMAS, "on their terms" --- if HAMAS wants to withdraw their armed men from KARNI and EREZ, and put an end to the daily rocket attacks, and release their hostages (Shalit and Johnston) then let them do so, unconditionally.

• The Israeli official said that there was no humanitarian crisis in Gaza and that goods were being transferred through the Sufa and Kerem Shalom crossings on a daily basis. [NOTE: This is all despite the security threats and actual attacks at Kerem Shalom]

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/47...6e0597aaa00ac6968525730500625d5a!OpenDocument
Rocket Attacks on Kerem Shalom Are "completely unacceptable and endanger the provision of vital humanitarian assistance to the civilian population of Gaza." -- United Nations Humanitarian Coordinator Kevin Kennedy.

I am not sure why you seem to believe that Israel is under some sort of obligation to have any quid-pro-quo agreements (backchannel or otherwise) with terrorists.

 

[webfusion]

(It was back in 1998, I was travelling with very little money and they alleged that I was planning to work illegally.)

Sounds reasonable. Weren't you planning on doing exactly that?

You were not arrested and detained at the Israeli border when you took a two-week journey to Israel and Jordan last December. Your travel blog says you faced intense scrutiny (with reasonable cause, according to you), nothing more.

The prison cell was full of Palestinians living abroad and trying to visit their relatives. No visa granted, so long and go back.

Two key words: "No visa."
Completely logical to prevent them from sneaking in. Most nations on this planet operate their border control systems this way.

Also, your anecdotal evidence fails to indicate the number of palestinians passing through the airport terminal, with proper visas, who did not end up in that holding unit. Or is it your claim that ALL palestinians on EVERY flight were detained and prohibited from entry?

SEE: Your Post # 4
"And denies the right of any (emphasis mine) Palestinian to return to the West Bank or Gaza, even if born there and officially listed as a refugee."

 

[webfusion]

I was enjoying reading from the Travel Blog that JJM provided on the Common Ground website --- thanks for providing the link.

I laughed at some (unintended) humor -- like this line:
...I had never in my life even tested a car with automatic gears. But never mind, I soon guessed that D means “drive”...

Or maybe it means -- "DUH" !!!!

I was fascinated by this description:
I spent one hour in the national park, taking photos of the ancient ruins and wondering who was the idiot that has authorized building a massive coal power station next to one of the major historical sites of the country.

Probably the same idiot that only allocated 15 miles for the entire width of the State of Israel at Hadera (you can see on a map where the generation station is actually located -- not truly at the Caesarea archaeological site).


[/end derail]

 

[geni]

Probably the same idiot that only allocated 15 miles for the entire width of the State of Israel at Hadera

Doubtful that would probably have been the UN/ some british civil servant. I doubt either delt with electricity production.

 

[geni]

In another recent thread, there was some discussion about whether or not Israel would continue aid and assistance to the people in Gaza, despite the HAMAS taking over there.


Israel is trying hard to get food and supplies through ---- but the terrorists are trying their hardest to stop it.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=22994&Cr=palestin&Cr1=

Hmm for maxium ammussement someone should try routeing it via egypt. Somehow I don't think the egyption militry would be too happy about hammas droping stuff on them.

 

[BPSCG]

Also South Africa used to have "laws in their country", passed by an "elected legislative". Not to mention that a well-known German gentleman with a funny small moustache was a democratically elected politician.

Oh, good, another anti-semite on the forum. Jews = Hitler. Israel = Nazi Germany. Lovely.

Funny, people won't say the "n" word, because it's widely considered to be the most offensive slur in the English language. But drawing filthy moral equivalences between Hitler and people he tried to exterminate is perfectly acceptable. No reason to get offended about that. They're just Jews, after all.

 

[webfusion]

Doubtful that would probably have been the UN/ some british civil servant. I doubt either dealt with electricity production.

geni, you crack me up!

The power production capabilities in Palestine were indeed of major interest to the British, specifically Lord Reading (Rufus Isaacs). The electric-generation turbines at Tel Aviv bear his name today.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2003/5/The Power Plant on Two Rivers
In 1921, with the active assistance of the Zionist leadership, public figures, and private capital, Pinhas Rutenberg was granted a concession from the British mandatory government to generate electricity by harnessing the Yarkon River near the growing city of Tel Aviv. Shortly afterwards, he received an assurance that he could also exploit all the running water in western Palestine, including that of the Jordan River.


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In regards to routing massive aid through Egypt, the crossing at Rafah is inadequate for this purpose. It cannot accommodate the huge volumes of cargo which are trans-shipped into and out of Gaza. Also, the traverse over the northern Sinai is a blazing hot, brutal journey (220 difficult miles from Cairo airport). The trip from KARNI to Ben Gurion International is a quick 50-mile highway ride. Additionally, the Israeli airport is well-equipped to handle the export of Gaza produce and flowers, utilizing the infrastructure of AGREXCO, one of the premier distribution agencies with markets throughout Europe.
The Egyptians are not anywhere near that excellent level of Israeli expertise and connections. Nor are the Egytians prepared to spend the millions of $$$ required to set up such a system for the Gazans, in any case.

 

[JJM 777]

Sounds reasonable. Weren't you planning on doing exactly that?

Of course not, I was heading for volunteer work, which I had previously done for 18 months already (in Misgav la Dakh hospital, Beyt Singer children's home in Kfar Yechezqeel, and Ma'alot police school).

...I had never in my life even tested a car with automatic gears. But never mind, I soon guessed that D means “drive”...

Actually this happens a lot at airports. Just a month ago I witnessed such a scene at Milano airport. The more amusing when you've been there and done that yourself.

I am not sure why you seem to believe that Israel is under some sort of obligation

Because United Nations has been demanding and recommending this for half a century already? For humanitarian reasons? Just to mention a few points.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

You snipped the most pertinent part of the quote, that you think Israel should have agreements with terrorists. Do you trust terrorists to keep their bargains?

 

[Cheesejoff]

Oh, good, another anti-semite on the forum. Jews = Hitler. Israel = Nazi Germany. Lovely.

Funny, people won't say the "n" word, because it's widely considered to be the most offensive slur in the English language. But drawing filthy moral equivalences between Hitler and people he tried to exterminate is perfectly acceptable. No reason to get offended about that. They're just Jews, after all.

So comparisons between the Nazi government and the Israeli Government cannot be drawn, even when they are apt?

 

[webfusion]

So comparisons between the Nazi government and the Israeli Government cannot be drawn, even when they are apt?

What was 'apt' about the comparison? JJM indicated that the laws of Israel "do not matter for anything" (he offered that in Hebrew, for some reason, without a translation) and then proceeded to hint to us that the laws of the State of Israel are basically equivalent to nazism.

How is that, in any way, shape of form, "apt" ???

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JJM_777, I'm in total agreement with Silly Green Monkey -- how dare you take a quote of mine, and truncate it in order to make it adhere to your strawman!


I'm still trying to figure out why you ended up spending 3 days in confinement, and weren't given immediate clearance to enter Israel, especially since you apparently had proper identity documentation, a valid visa, and prior written authorization for volunteer work ...in Misgav la Dakh hospital, Beyt Singer children's home in Kfar Yechezqeel, and Ma'alot police school.
Nope, something about your story doesn't add up.


More importantly, you conveniently ignored this part of my posting:
Also, your anecdotal evidence fails to indicate the number of palestinians passing through the airport terminal, with proper visas, who did not end up in that holding unit. Or is it your claim that ALL palestinians on EVERY flight were detained and prohibited from entry?
(This goes back to refer to your Post # 4, which appeared to be inaccurate, on its face, with you proclaiming "Apartheid Rules")

 

[Cheesejoff]

What was 'apt' about the comparison? JJM indicated that the laws of Israel "do not matter for anything" (he offered that in Hebrew, for some reason, without a translation) and then proceeded to hint to us that the laws of the State of Israel are basically equivalent to nazism.

How is that, in any way, shape of form, "apt" ???

Simply because a law is passed by a democratically elected body, does not mean the law is good or right. You need more justification than that.

Besides, I was not arguing against you. I was actually asking BPSCG if comparisons between Jews and Nazis could ever be made.

 

[webfusion]

Simply because a law is passed by a democratically elected body, does not mean the law is good or right. You need more justification than that.

Correct. That is why I specifically referred to the reasons and the context behind the Law of Return in 1950.
See:My post # 6 on this thread

The response to this was offered by JJM_777, who said:

• Loe meshanneh klum. ("It matters for nothing") Also South Africa used to have "laws in their country", passed by an "elected legislative". Not to mention that a well-known German gentleman with a funny small moustache was a democratically elected politician.

That is a direct comparison of the Knesset of Israel to Nazi Germany's Reichstag Ermächtigungsgesetz 'Gesetz zur Behebung der Not von Volk und Reich' (and continues his other analogy to the apartheid laws of South Africa), both of which are not "apt" regarding the Law of Return, nor to Israeli laws in general.

Besides, I was not arguing against you. I was actually asking BPSCG if comparisons between Jews and Nazis could ever be made.

I will not answer for BPSCG, but in my opinion, you are asking if the comparisons can be made, when "apt" --- and I would have to see evidence of what makes it "apt" before agreeing to a comparison being offered.
The present case is very far from "apt"
(apt defined as "exactly suitable")