Warren: An Excellent Choice for the Invocation

Skeptic

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Thinking it over, I begin to think Warren is an excellent choice for Obama's invocation. And the fact that he chosen Warren's opposite - Rev. Lowery, the civil rights hero -- as his counterpart (Warren gives the invocation, Lowery the benediction) is highly significant and, I think, confirms my thesis.

So, WHY do I think Obama made an excellent choice?

The invocation (opening) and benediction (closing) of the inaguration are CEREMONIAL posts. Ceremonies are not to be judged by the same standard as, say, lectures or political meetings. Attending a ceremony is a symbolic act saying you are part of a community -- it does NOT imply one agrees with the personal views of the person performing the ceremony. Have those of you who have been married by a Rabbi, Priest, etc., demanded to know what his political -- or even religious -- views are? Does anybody inquire into the political views of the singer of the national anthem in a baseball game? No.

The obvious question, then, is why have ceremonies at all. Why the "pointless" excercise of listening to words you already know by someone whose views you don't care about? The reason is that ceremony is a COMMUNITY affair -- it symbolizes the community supports, or denounces, certain things; it lets people declare (by participating) they belong to the community; and so on.

Now, what is Obama's purpose in giving these ceremonial posts to these two people, Warren and Lowery? It is to show that he, as president, has the support -- or, conversely, WILL support -- Americans of all kinds of different communities, even those (civil-right-era blacks and contemporary religious conservatives) which have strong disagreements between them. The idea is to symbolize the unity of the American people.

So Warren is NOT there as an individual. Warren is there as a representative of a community -- the evangelical community, and, more generally, the conservative religious community. Obama, in inviting Warren, is NOT saying that he agrees with his views (in that case, why invite Lowery?), but, quite legitimately and correctly, that the conservative religious community, whatever his differences with it, is welcome as a legitimate section of America. For this reason, it is PRECSIELY THAT Warren is (a) a very popular preacher and (b) known to have strong, even extreme, conservative views that make him an ideal selection for the ceremonial purpose. If a prima facie more "appropriate" -- e.g., liberal -- priest were chosen, that would (implicitly) send the message to evangelicals that they are not welcome in Obama's America. That would be a very bad message to send -- not only morally, but also practically.

It's a bit like the old ceremonies of priests hugging lepers or the jewish prayer, on the day of atonement, that "it is permissible to pray with habitual sinners" (avaryan'im). These ceremonial acts were hardly to be seen as support of leprosy or of habitual sin; they were intended rather to show to the beggars and sinners (as well as the community in general) that they are still part of the community.
 
I really don't see the Warren thing as being all that out of character. I think much of this bruhaha comes from the idea that folks projected onto Obama their worst fears, or best hopes. Either he was this evil communist stealth muslim secret radical christian, or he was a reincarnation of LBJ, JFK, FDR and MLK. But I always saw him as what could be best described as moderate and pragmatic. I certainly have much criticism for Warren, and various Obama stances. But he's never struck me as one to take bold and polarizing culture war stances.
 
Rick Warren is a radical cleric who just 2 weeks ago called for the assassination of a foreign leader (Iran's, of course), giving biblical justification. My what a versitile book that is! In any case, this, more than the gay-bashing stuff, makes him a terribly inappropriate choice to give the opening ooga-booga at Obama's inauguration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQhw...progress.org/2008/12/04/warren-stopping-evil/
 
I think you are reading too much into it. If Warren was anti-black or anti-woman it is highly likely he would be standing up there.

No matter the rationalisation, I can't help but see this as it is: a cynical ploy to get evangelists on the side of Obama. I'm still hopeful with regard to his Presidency, but if Bush had chosen Warren we'd be up there declaring a theocracy in the making.
 
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As upset as I initially was with Obama's choice, I have to say I agree with the OP. This is a political chess move. He's been stuck in the unenviable position of having to piece together a divided country into some semblance of a union. As a politician, he's going to have a lot of hands to kiss and babies to shake, and sometimes those babies are quite ugly.

Besides, who knows? This might just be the perfect opportunity for a pastor who has struggled to repress his blatant homosexual tendencies his whole life to finally come out of the closet on a national stage. :D
 
Bush's choice for his first inauguration was the very odious Franklin Graham. He stood in for his equally odious, if less publicly so, father. They're all the same: theocrats being thrown a bone by being allowed to act as state shaman in the most important showcase event of our secular democracy.
 
1) Obama wishes to appear as a moderate, if not a blue dog democrat. This desire started as soon as he won the Demecratic primary. How liberal he is going to look as president is an open question (my reasoned speculation: very liberal).

2) For a theocrat evangelical a good case can be made that Warren is not at the extreme. (If you think he is, you either have information about Warren I don't or you don't know what the extreme is.)

3) Political payback: Warren gave Obama a forum and now the favor is being returned.

4) Warren's ant-gay marriage remarks don't hurt Obama's black base, which is generally anti-gay marriage. (I don't have the time to pull up the statistics right now, but I believe California's anti-gay marriage amendment was rejected 48 for / 52 against by self-identified white voters; it was minority voters especially self-identified African-Americans which passed it.)

5) The best educated people (graduate school and above) generally vote Republican; not in 2008. Obama wants to court this group of intellectuals to improve his chances in 2012.
 
2) For a theocrat evangelical a good case can be made that Warren is not at the extreme. (If you think he is, you either have information about Warren I don't or you don't know what the extreme is.)


Did you see the item above about calling for the assassination of a foreign leader? Perhaps by the standards of other theocrats, you don't consider that extreme, but I consider it extreme under any rubric.

Then there's the claim that he had to support Prop 8, because otherwise preachers could be restricted from preaching the biblical definition of marriage from the pulpit. Either that's extreme lying or extreme stupidity.
 
Rick Warren is a radical cleric who just 2 weeks ago called for the assassination of a foreign leader (Iran's, of course), giving biblical justification. My what a versitile book that is! In any case, this, more than the gay-bashing stuff, makes him a terribly inappropriate choice to give the opening ooga-booga at Obama's inauguration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQhw...progress.org/2008/12/04/warren-stopping-evil/

I just listened to your link. Perhaps you chose the wrong one. It was Hannity that said we need to "take out" Ahmadinejad. Warren calls for the punishment of evil doers and claims that people have a right to defend themselves. It is a stretch to say the least that his partial agreement with Hannity is a call for the assassination of a foreign leader.
 
I just listened to your link. Perhaps you chose the wrong one. It was Hannity that said we need to "take out" Ahmadinejad. Warren calls for the punishment of evil doers and claims that people have a right to defend themselves. It is a stretch to say the least that his partial agreement with Hannity is a call for the assassination of a foreign leader.


HANNITY: Achmedinejad ... I think we need to take him out. Am I advocating something dark, evil, or something righteous.

WARREN: Well, actually the bible says that Evil cannot be negotiated with. It has to just be stopped.

HANNITY: Through force?

WARREN: If necessary. And in fact that is the legitimate role of government. The bible says that God puts government on Earth to punish evildoers -- not gooddoers, evildoers.

OK, that that's not an explicit "yes" to Hannity's question, but is it not an unequivocal endorsement of the state-sponsored assassination of Achmedinejad? It sure sounds like it to me.

For me, I'd like to know where the bible says all that junk, not that I doubt it's in there if you interpret the literal word of god hard enough.
 
No matter the rationalisation, I can't help but see this as it is: a cynical ploy to get evangelists on the side of Obama. I'm still hopeful with regard to his Presidency, but if Bush had chosen Warren we'd be up there declaring a theocracy in the making.


Quite probably -- but there's a big political difference precisely because Warren is an opponent of many of Obama's causes and a supporter of most if not all of Bush's.

One of the major flaws that historians have already identified about the Bush presidency is his exclusion of opponents -- the so-called "Rove doctrine" (if you have a strong enough base, you need only appeal to them and not to outsiders). Since a big part of Bush's base were the de-facto theocrats, it's not surprising that a lot of his actions favored theocracy.

If nothing else, Obama is trying to show that the Rove doctrine is dead by bringing his opponents into the dialogue. If it's a cynical ploy to disavow failed doctrines of your predecessor -- well, long live cynical ploys, says I.
 
5) The best educated people (graduate school and above) generally vote Republican; not in 2008. Obama wants to court this group of intellectuals to improve his chances in 2012.

Do you have cites to support this? Everything I've been able to find suggests that the more education you have, the more likely you are to vote Democrat. (Example.) (Example 2.)
 
No matter the rationalisation, I can't help but see this as it is: a cynical ploy to get evangelists on the side of Obama.

If Obama nominated Warren to be secretary of the interior, or of education, THAT would certainly be a "cynical ploy to get evangelists on his side". Then you could talk about a real quid pro quo. But what evangelical is going to think Obama agrees with (most) of their views just because Warren is giving a ceremonial blessing? Nobody, that's who. If it is a "ploy", it's a very weird one.

So I don't think Obama at all intended to try and get "evangelicals on his side" with this invitation. The message sent to evangelicals ISN'T that Obama agrees with them and will support their goals -- having Lowery there as a "counterweight", if nothing else, shows that isn't so, to say nothing of Obama's own words and voting record.

The purpose, I repeat, of including their popular representative in the symbolic ceremony is to signal to the evangelicals they will not be excluded from Obama's America, despite the obvious fact that their worldview will not be his. It's an attempt to show that, disagreements about important issues aside, Warren and his followers are still part of the country, even when their ideological opponents are in power.

A perfectly legitimate, indeed necessary, gesture, if you ask me. And it could not be done, I repeat, by inviting a liberal preacher. To send the message Obama wants, it had to be someone like Warren.

I'm still hopeful with regard to his Presidency, but if Bush had chosen Warren we'd be up there declaring a theocracy in the making.

No doubt you would. I quite agree with you that if Bush said the exact same thing about Marriage as Obama, and invited the exact same people to his swearing-in (both Warren and Lowery), the usual gang of Bush derangement syndrome sufferers will say it is all a ploy for theocracy in the making. Complete with long, "in depth" and "scholarly" articles about the "real meaning" of Bush's action (that he's planning a theocracy) in the "learned" papers like the New York Times, The Nation, etc.

But what does that prove except that the anti-Bush people have lost contact with reality (in this case ignoring the all-important fact that the swearing-in is a CEREMONY, not a declaration of policy or political views)? What does that prove except that, from the start, there was little connection between the "coming theocracy" paranoia of the left and what Bush actually did or planned? As can be seen now, rather obviously, by the fact that (a) it is now late 2008, (b) the USA is not a theocracy?

P.S.

Back then, a few years ago, some of us tried to tell you on this forum that your fears of a "Bush theocracy" and "Bush dictatorship", etc., are paranoid fantasies based on very little evidence (as well as ignoring tons of other evidence), but all we got for our trouble was abuse, people screaming (metaphorically) at us that we are "republican shills", part of the "neocon world order", etc., etc.

Ah well.
 
Do you have cites to support this? Everything I've been able to find suggests that the more education you have, the more likely you are to vote Democrat. (Example.) (Example 2.)

Right. The more exposure to liberal professors, the more likely you will be indoctrinated into their political ideology. Conservatives are less susceptible to peer pressure and maintain their individuality. They also manage to avail themselves of knowledge from higher learning institutions without fixing their lips to liberal professors posteriors.
 
Did we parse the selection of Billy Graham this much ever?


Billy Graham was always a fixture as wingman to presidents. It just seemed right. Now that we've heard him on the tapes with Nixon jawboning about those terrible Jews, it might be time to give that old snake charmer a second look.
 
If LBJ had, in 1964, picked a preacher who was anti-black, would you have supported that move?

P.S.

Back then, a few years ago, some of us tried to tell you on this forum that your fears of a "Bush theocracy" and "Bush dictatorship", etc., are paranoid fantasies based on very little evidence (as well as ignoring tons of other evidence), but all we got for our trouble was abuse, people screaming (metaphorically) at us that we are "republican shills", part of the "neocon world order", etc., etc.

Ah well.

I think you are confusing me for someone else.
 
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I meant the plural "you", referring to the anti-Bush people in the forum in general, not the singular "you".
 
In other words: makin' it ad hominem toward lots of people, not just UW.
 

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