Vegetarianism seen through the skeptical eye

[Ron_Tomkins]

The reason I start this thread is because of the endless debates I have had with vegetarians who try to do nothing but appeal to my emotion and my morals, rather than provide me with serious evidence that vegetarianism is healthier than consuming meat products. Now, I consider myself to be neither a devoted carnivore nor the opposite. My opinion is that a balanced diet (one that involves both meat products and vegetables) is the really healthy choice. However, I'm not entirely closed to the possibility that some types of meat can be more harmful than others (although I do believe this is also dependant on the individual's metabolism).

Therefore, my question:

Is there any scientific evidence that meat (or certain types of meat) is harmful for human beings?

Also, an additional one:

Is there any evidence of this old claim that supposedly, the stress that the animal goes through when he is killed somehow remains in its flesh which we eat and thus, harms us?

 

[quarky]

Some people just aren't down with manipulating and killing animals for food, if they don't have to. Others are fine with it. My guess is that its best to feel good about what you eat.
Factory raised meat, to me, borders on cruelty to animals, as well as providing a somewhat degraded food. One needn't be crazy to not want to take part in it.

It is an emotional issue. Why dismiss that aspect?

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

It is largely a moral issue, not a scientific one. The vegetarians I know are better with their diet than most meat eaters, because they obviously have to focus on it more. But I don't think all vegetarians are saying that a vegie diet is inherently healthier than a meat diet.

 

[CapelDodger]

I'm sure there's a moral issue involved. I avoid its details by being vegetarian. If the day comes that it's the rabbiit or me, the rabbit gets it, but that's not this day. It's a nasty business, and I want no part of it.

M'dog gets meat, of course, because he doesn't give a f***, and why should he? He'd relish an environment where he could kill his own.

 

[Rat]

I don't think I've ever met a vegetarian who claimed to be so for health reasons. If you're arguing with them, then of course they will appeal to emotions, because it is a personal moral choice for most. If you don't feel that it's wrong to kill an animal for your pleasure, then you likely won't convince someone who feels otherwise, and neither will they likely convince you otherwise.

To your specific questions, I have little evidence. I am told that adrenaline will ruin meat, but I have no citations to support that. I don't believe that meat is, as such, harmful, but I suspect that the average vegetarian has a healthier diet than the average meat eater. There are some veggies who make up for the meat with copious cheese, but otherwise, it seems to work out well.

 

[Wowbagger]

I'm a vegetarian who used to believe in some of the health reasons. But, not for very long. It is hard to accept those arguments when people point out:

* The physiology of humans was clearly evolved to handle consumption of various food sources: including meat and vegetables, etc.

* Most vegetarians tend to live just as long as meat eaters, and sometimes even a shorter life span.

* Certain proteins, and other nutrients, are harder to come by in vegetable form.

Nowadays, I am still mostly vegetarian, out of personal preference, and not a very strict one, by any means.

 

[CapelDodger]

Is there any evidence of this old claim that supposedly, the stress that the animal goes through when he is killed somehow remains in its flesh which we eat and thus, harms us?

I remember that one from way back. It's nonsense. Hormones and such are part of a highly-tuned signalling mechanism; they're not the sort of molecules that hang around. Let alone what the stomach and intestinal tract do between "what we eat" and "what we are" - it's brutal.

The idea that some sort of signal can survive all that is laughable. I've never heard it from anyone who has the slightest grasp of science.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

I was a vegetarian, for moral reasons. My wife still is, again, for morals. In my case, I decided that I was not going to kill some animal to eat it, but if it is already dead, bring it on.

My wife is not convinced with that argument, but anyway, the point is that we never went for the "healthier" arguments.

The point with the last argument was about the stress increased the amounts of adrenaline in the body, is that healthier or not, does it reach all muscles or not, I have no idea.

 

[KateHL]

I know a few 'for-health' vegetarians who think that, since going veggie, even though they haven't lost weight, their weight has redistributed on their body - which they attribute to their diet. I'm pretty sure the only way that's going to happen is if you gain muscle mass/lose fat through exercise or develop a tumor.

But that being said I was a vegetarian (for moral reasons) for 5 years and felt good about it. I began eating meat again when I started having blood sugar issues and needed to be able to eat whatever was available the fastest. I still don't eat meat very often and when I do I tend to stick to seafood and chicken and game.

 

[CapelDodger]

I'm a vegetarian who used to believe in some of the health reasons. But, not for very long. It is hard to accept those arguments when people point out:

* The physiology of humans was clearly evolved to handle consumption of various food sources: including meat and vegetables, etc.

Also worms, larvae, termites, and whatever came to hand, frankly. Time was that a balanced diet wasn't a life-choice.

* Most vegetarians tend to live just as long as meat eaters, and sometimes even a shorter life span.

We may see that demographic change, with the obesity thing. That's yet to bite in a big way.

* Certain proteins, and other nutrients, are harder to come by in vegetable form.

Even harder in burger or pizza form .

 

[Apathia]

I don't think I've ever met a vegetarian who claimed to be so for health reasons.

I was a veg from age 16 for health reasons. I tried going vegan, but my body protested, so I included dairy products.
It seems to me I benefited from it. However at 51, I began to feel I needed pre-digested proteins, so to speak, as my digestive system wasn't as strong as it was in my youth. So I now have fish or chicken about once a week.

 

[Sickly Crypsis]

Well if you think about the way we prepare most meat in our diets its not exactly as lean as a strict vegetarians diet. We fry, bake, grill etc yet we rarely steam or boil it as we do mostly with vegetables (because I for one, feel that it tastes lousy) So having taken that step you can see a lot of fat taken out of the diet which is the main reason why it could be seen that meat could be unhealthy, being that high fat diets contribute to higher instances of diabetes, heart disease and so on.

At an evolutionary stand point we are built to live on a diet of various plants and meats, for a person to be healthy on a pure vegan diet usually requires a more careful selection of various plants to contain the minerals and proteins found in abundance in meat and even supplements to boost that particular vitamin/mineral or as a catalyst to extract it more effectively from the vegetables they eat which contain it but only in trace amounts.

To live on this diet when we were at a more primitive stage and remain healthy would be almost impossible because for starters, the wide variety of plants needed to make up the gamut of vitamins and minerals don't grow in the same place or in the same season and not to mention that even knowing what each plant contained couldn't be established.

http://www.csiro.au/resources/ps8l.html

Short but sweet fact sheet on red meat.

Benefits of living in an advanced society, we can choice to eat what we want, be healthy and with technology avoid what we were genetically programed to do and survive on.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Kind of anecdotal, but when I hiked the Pacific Crest Trail, I met and hiked with a Vegan for several weeks. After about 800 miles he had to drop out because he was simply too tired and was turning skeletal. I had merely gotten in shape and was more than willing to press on

 

[KateHL]

being that high fat diets contribute to higher instances of diabetes

In monkeys. And considering the nature of diabetes it's easy to imagine it would be more harmful to ingest fats from processed foods and sugars than from meat, but maybe I'm wrong. The way I see it if you're eating a very high fat diet you're probably overweight which puts you at high risk for diabetes. And you're probably taking in lots of sugars as well. Not rocket science.

One good thing about vegetarianism is that is makes it difficult to eat fast food. So there's that.

I think a good diet is a good diet with or without meat. Outside of that it's a morality issue.

 

[Tumbleweed]

In monkeys. And considering the nature of diabetes it's easy to imagine it would be more harmful to ingest fats from processed foods and sugars than from meat, but maybe I'm wrong. The way I see it if you're eating a very high fat diet you're probably overweight which puts you at high risk for diabetes. And you're probably taking in lots of sugars as well. Not rocket science.

One good thing about vegetarianism is that is makes it difficult to eat fast food. So there's that.

I think a good diet is a good diet with or without meat. Outside of that it's a morality issue.

But I am so torn about eggs, the perfect food - except for the cholesterol. Mine is high, because of them I am sure, but I just had a sonogram done and my arteries are just fine!
Yes fast food is horrible stuff. Personally I think all deep fried foods are also really bad for you. I remember smelling the kitchen exhaust fan when working on a roof while someone was deep frying food and thinking, man that's something I don't want in MY body
My good friend is 57 and a veggie ( not a Vegan) and she gets along just fine without beef, pork or chicken. She does eat fish and dairy products.
As to the moral issue, I figure if Christ thought it was okie dokie to eat fish, who am I to argue about it?

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Is there any scientific evidence that meat (or certain types of meat) is harmful for human beings?

Check out "The China Study". It's been discussed in another thread briefly.

 

[Sickly Crypsis]

One good thing about vegetarianism is that is makes it difficult to eat fast food.

Very good point. I can imagine having to exercise at least 1 day less if i didn't eat meat and didn't indulge in a 3am, Saturday night, post drinking kebab/burger/pizza/leg of ham.

Meat has been an essential contributer to our brain development but as it stands to day I would definitely agree that a good diet with exercise, is a good diet regardless how you get it.

 

[Tumbleweed]

My grandmother was a strict Seveth Day Advenist and a strict vegetarian. She ate plenty of dairy products and fish
As I remember it, it was a health issue with them, more than a moral one. Something about meat being "unclean" and therefore unhealthy
I say this because they also fasted one day a week, the purpose being to cleanse the body of excess " stuff" and to stay lean. Not a bad idea really. If everybody started reducing their caloric intake by one seventh, there would be far less obesity. Was my grandmother ahead of the curve? We now know that reduced caloric intake leads to longevity, and red meat clogs your arteries. Whoda thunk they'd beat science to the draw

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Just as I thought.


In the 18 replies I have received, not one person has said "Yes, it's been proven to be unhealthy through this and this and this study".

I always find it amuzing that some vegetarians feel it's morally wrong to kill an animal, because it's a living creature and blablabla, but yet they don't seem to think that plants are also living creatures who are also being killed when you eat them. I think it has to do with the fact that we feel more empathy with creatures that look more like us. Therefore, we could feel great empathy for a dog, a pig or even a bird, but not too much empathy for a cockroach or a crab.

I remember this girl who's now going into vegetarianism and she keeps talking about how she turned to vegetarianism because of the animals and how she doesn't like them being killed... but she still can't stop eating fish and seafood. In fact, she didn't even mind eating tempurized crab and seeing the crab's little hands all fried up.

Check out "The China Study". It's been discussed in another thread briefly.

Where exactly is that?

One good thing about vegetarianism is that is makes it difficult to eat fast food. So there's that.

I don't see the correlation. I eat meat and vegetables and I avoid fast food at all costs. I don't see why eating meat forces someone to have to eat fast food. I like to eat healthy: That implies no fast food. With or without meat.

 

[KateHL]

I don't see the correlation. I eat meat and vegetables and I avoid fast food at all costs. I don't see why eating meat forces someone to have to eat fast food. I like to eat healthy: That implies no fast food. With or without meat.

Well, to be fair, you're arguing against what you think I said rather than what I actually said. I said being a vegetarian makes it difficult to eat fast food, meaning it's hard to find a meatless meal on a fast food menu. My argument was not that meat eaters are more likely to want to eat fast food, just that fast food caters to omnivores (burgers, hot dogs, fried chicken, burritos, etc.). In fact, my next sentence was "I think a good diet is a good diet with or without meat."

So we agree with each other except I recognize that fast food has fewer options for vegetarians.

As for your friend being a vegetarian who eats seafood, well, that's cheating, frankly.