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TV Station Makes Prayer Study Claim

fishbait

Raggin' the Blues
Joined
Jun 3, 2003
Messages
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A local TV station in PA ran a piece about The Power of Faith.
In the section titled "God's Will":
"Other studies have shown medical patients who didn't know they were being prayed for by strangers were actually released from the hospital 11 percent sooner than patients not being prayed for."

Anyone know what studies they refer to?

I sent an email to the station asking for the information.
 
A survey conducted by the American Academy of Family Physicians shows that ninety-nine percent of doctors believe a relationship exists between faith and physical healing. Recently, more than one thousand health-care professionals met at Harvard Medical School to examine the connection between spirituality and healing.

Doctors’ faith in faith was bolstered by a California study of the effect of prayer on recovery from heart problems. About two hundred heart patients were assigned to Christians who prayed for them, while an equal number, a control group, received no known prayers. Neither group knew about the prayers, yet those who received prayer developed half the complications that were experienced by those in the control group.

A similar study by the Dartmouth Medical School examined the effect of prayer on healing when the patients prayed for themselves. The death rate six months after bypass surgery was 9 percent for the general population but 5 percent for those who prayed for their own healing. And none of the deeply religious patients died during the period of the study.

The Associated Press, quoted in “Religion in the News,” Signs of the Times, March 1997, p. 4

Bible.org

So there's a couple places to start.
 
People who learned about relaxed breathing and received soothing touch and music before heart surgery were more likely to be alive 6 months after the procedure, suggesting that these additional steps help speed recovery, according to a study released today.

People who were prayed for off-site, however, fared no better after their heart procedures, according to a report in The Lancet.

Study author Dr. Mitchell W. Krucoff told Reuters Health that this study is an "early step," and researchers still have a lot to learn about how to integrate high-tech approaches to medicine with "the rest of the human being."

"This is not 'God failed the test,' or 'God passed the test,"' Krucoff, from Duke University in Durham, North Carolina, told Reuters Health. "It's way too early."
http://home.datacomm.ch/rezamusic/music_therapy.html
 
Okay. Now follow this...

Following Dr. Benson, Dr. Harold Koenig from Duke University spoke on the effects religious belief and practice has on health. Dr. Koenig announced that the Center for the Study of Religion/Spirituality and Health at Duke University is beginning two-year post-doctoral research fellowships on religion and health. They will begin in the July 2002 and will train eight scientists to conduct research on religion and health and to effectively compete for NIH and private foundation funding in this area. Two slots are still available. Any Ph.D. or M.D. who is interested should contact Dr. Koenig at koenig@geri.duke.edu.

Dec 17, 2001


So...how'd it turn out?


Praying for patients undergoing heart operations does not improve their outcomes, a US study suggests.
A study found those who were prayed for were as likely to have a setback in hospital, be re-admitted, or die within six months as those not prayed for.

The Duke University Medical Center study of 700 patients, in the Lancet, said music, image and touch therapy did appear to reduce patients' distress.

<snip>

The results of this study contradict earlier findings from the same team which suggested a drop of a quarter or more in "adverse outcomes" - including death, heart failure or heart attack.

However, that trial involved only 150 patients.

July 15, 2005




ETA: Hmm. The first trial. 150 patients. Let's see if Dr. Koenig was involved somehow.


Patients admitted to hospital with heart problems suffer fewer complications if someone prays for them, according to scientists in the US.

The study, carried out at Duke University Medical Center in North Carolina, found that patients who received alternative therapy following angioplasty were 25% to 30% less likely to suffer complications.

And those who received "intercessory prayer" had the greatest success rate.

The study, carried out between April 1997 and April 1998, involved 150 patients who had all undergone angioplasty - whereby a balloon is positioned in a hardened and narrowed artery and inflated to force it open.

<snip>

Dr Harold Koenig, associate professor of psychiatry at Duke University Medical Center, said: "Some of the greatest scientific achievements have come from those who step outside of the box and I believe that is what this study does.

"The results tend to lean toward prayer helping people but more study is needed."

November 1, 2001

And the next month, Koenig is calling for a new study!
 
Last edited:
Studies galore you can pursue!

A 1998 study of nearly 4,000 people aged 65 years and older which found the risk of diastolic hypertension 40 percent lower among people who attended religious services at least once a week and prayed or studied the Bible at least daily.
A 1997 study of more than 1,700 older adults from North Carolina which found that persons who attended church at least once a week were only half as likely as non-attenders to have elevated levels of interleukin-6, an immune system protein involved in a wide variety of age-related diseases.
A 1998 study of 87 depressed older adults which found those who recovered from depression the fastest corresponded to the extent of their religious belief.
A study of 542 patients aged 60 or older admitted to Duke University Medical Center which found those who attended religious services weekly or more reduced hospital stays by more than half. People with no religious affiliation spent an average of 25 days in the hospital compared to 11 days for patients affiliated with some religious denomination. Patients who attended religious services weekly or more also were 43 percent less likely to have been hospitalized in the previous year.
A 2002 study of 116 depressed geriatric patients who were given standard medications treatment over 12 weeks. The recovered patients in the study reported "significantly more frequent public and private religious practices, greater positive religious coping, and less negative religious coping" than those who remained depressed.
The National Institute of Health Care Research, which listed four of these Duke studies, also included:

A 1995 study of 232 patients at Dartmouth Medical School which found that elderly heart patients were 14 times less likely to die following surgery if they found strength and comfort in their religious faith and remained socially involved.
A landmark University of California at Berkeley study that followed 5,286 people from Alameda County, California over 28 years, which found those who attended religious services weekly or more were 25 percent less likely to die than infrequent attenders.
A 1998 study of 2,025 senior citizens in Marin County, California which found attending worship services on a regular basis was an important factor in predicting longevity.
A 1999 study tracking more than 21,000 US adults which found attending religious services more than once a week can expand one’s life up to seven years and added a potential 14 more years to the life span of African Americans.

http://www.mcmanweb.com/article-102.htm
 
Okay, that last post didn't have any studies about people being prayed for off-site. So I'll make it up to you:

In the most widely publicized studies of the effect of intercessory prayer, cardiologist Randolph Byrd studied 393 patients admitted to the coronary-care unit at San Francisco General Hospital. Some were prayed for by home-prayer groups, others were not. All the men and women got medical care. In this randomized, double-blind study, neither the doctors and nurses nor the patients knew who would be the object of prayer.

The results were dramatic and surprised many scientists.The men and women whose medical care was supplemented with prayer needed fewer drugs and spent less time on ventilators. They also fared better overall than their counterparts who received medical care but nothing more. The prayed-for patients were:

Significantly less likely to require antibiotics (3 patients versus 16)
Significantly less likely to develop pulmonary edema-a condition in which the lungs fill with fluid because the heart cannot pump properly (6 versus 18).
Significantly less likely to require insertion of a tube into the throat to assist breathing (0 versus 12).
Less likely to die (but this difference was not statistically significant).

http://1stholistic.com/Prayer/hol_prayer_proof.htm

But wait! That's not all!

In a survey of 131 controlled experiments on spiritual healing, it was found that prayed-for rye grass grew taller; prayed-for yeast resisted the toxic effects of cyanide; prayed-for test-tube bacteria grew faster. "I adore these experiments," says Larry Dossey, M.D., perhaps the world's most vocal expert on prayer and medicine.

A novena for bacteria...
 
Hrm, so they had a group of 393 patients.
Assuming, by the wonders of random, that there were equal #'s of men and women in the two groups, we would have the follwoing:
Test Group
-------------
Antibiotics needed = 1.5%
pulmonary edema = 3.0%
trach tube = 0%

Control Group
-------------
Antibiotics needed = 8.1%
pulmonary edema = 9.1%
trach tube = 6.0%

Unfortunetely, they say nothing about what the breakdown of the groups. Due to the makeup of the control group, whether by choice or chance, were they as a group, statistically more likely to need any of those treatments. Were the same doctors treating both groups? Were the criteria for the above treatments applied equally across both groups? There is so much lack of detail in that article it may as well be anectdotal.

Or am I being overly critical?
 
Do any of these studies ever define what they mean by prayer? To whom or what are they praying? Do they all say the same prayers or do they just wing it individually?

Has there ever been a prayer study done where there is no chance of coincidence? Like a study using amputees as the subjects?

BTW, from the Power of Faith article:
"No, God didn't give me cancer. God allowed me to have cancer as a wake up call for me," he said.
How thoughtful of god for allowing this guy to have a terrible disease!
 
At the very least, I would like the proponents of this hypothesis to describe how prayer can be "aimed" at or limited to a particular people or groups of people.

For example, if they say "We prayed to God to help all the sick people in study XXX in YYY hospital", that would necessarily include the control groups. It would also quite possibly be "testing God" to perform this act of specific benificence, which I understand is a big no-no.

Any more general than that would start to include everyone in the hospital, so they would need to be included in the study statistics too, I suppose.

The impression I got was that the prayer groups did not even know which patients, which hospital, or even when to pray for them. In which case the whole set of statistics is utterly pointless - the "power of prayer" would apply to every person in hospital anywhere in the world (and even not on this world!) during the relevant time period.

At which point, I would start to suspect a severe case of statistical ignorance and/or data-mining has been happening with those studies...
 
I see a business opportunity here.

"Scientific studies have proven that the power of prayer works. Have your prayers been ineffective? You need the Prayer Amplifier!"

"Suffering from petitioner impotence? You need Vitamin P!"

"I noticed my neighbor Bob got a new car and some expensive landscaping done, recently. And he's got a really hot wife. So I asked him..."
 
...
Unfortunetely, they say nothing about what the breakdown of the groups. Due to the makeup of the control group, whether by choice or chance, were they as a group, statistically more likely to need any of those treatments. Were the same doctors treating both groups? Were the criteria for the above treatments applied equally across both groups? There is so much lack of detail in that article it may as well be anectdotal.

Or am I being overly critical?
I think another important question is how many measurements did they take about the patient's condition? Far be it from me to suggest that they chose a subset of the measurements of condition post hoc to support their hypothesis and ignored the others.

Oh wait, I just did :blush:
 
Response from WJAC-TV

I got a prompt email reply from the TV station that aired that piece.

Mr. Havel, below is a link to the website where we found the study on prayer and heart patients.

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/alternative/01/18/prayer.power.wmd/

Melissa Viscount
WJAC-TV
News Producer
814-255-7669
The news producer says in her email that they "found the study" on a site that turns out to be a report on the study, not the actual study. It is another report on the power of prayer, this time from CNN.

Funny thing is, the CNN report directly contradicts what WJAC-TV reported. WJAC-TV makes a report on a report and manages to report the exact opposite of what their source reported. In favor of the power of prayer, of course!

WJAC-TV report quote:
patients who didn't know they were being prayed for by strangers were actually released from the hospital 11 percent sooner than patients not being prayed for.
CNN report quote:
In Harris' study, the length of the hospital stay and the time spent in the cardiac unit were no different for the two groups. [snip] The prayers were for a "speedy recovery" but there were no measurable differences in hospital stays for the two groups, he says. "Half of their predictions failed at the offset."

I shot off another email to WJAC-TV asking them to explain the contradictions. I'll post my email if you want.
 
Oh, yes, do post it.

Sounds like they have very lazy investigators. They are reporting on another tv stations report? Did they get through school on Cliff Notes? Sheesh. Shoddy, shoddy, shoddy. Did they do any actual investigation themselves? Or were they just looking for one more "feel good" filler for time and thought this would do :p

Stupid, stupid rat creatures
 
I have looked into a couple of these types of studies.

Generally they are fishing expeditions. They will have some large inventory of measures and look for changes. They usually find a couple and then they have an effect.

These all suffer from a basic statistical error (which any investigator should know about ... often you find that paranormal researcher have funny lapses ...

In any event the problem (and it's solution) is described here ..

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/BonferroniCorrection.html
 
Nah - just show us the resulting dodge-and-weave! ;)
Will do.

I don't usually take time to follow-up on false or misleading news reports but, by jebus, I'm starting to get p***ed with the amount of specious religiosity being reported.
 
At the very least, I would like the proponents of this hypothesis to describe how prayer can be "aimed" at or limited to a particular people or groups of people....
They claim in this study that the pray-ers were just given the first names of the target prayees.

Seems to me if Fred, Ralph, Petunia, Mavis, et al, were the target names, then the study would have to include every Fred, Ralph, Petunia, Mavis, et al in the world for the study to be valid.

No doubt, people have been praying for an end to suffering and disease in genaral for thousands of years. If it works, why is there still disease in the world?

Someone told me yesterday that "prayer always changes things". I asked how so? "You'll find out when you get to heaven", she said.

OooooooK! Glad you filled me in on the prayer thing!

Makes me want to shove a pencil in my ear really far.
 

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