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Turns out the Volt is just a regular plug in hybrid after all...

LTC8K6

Penultimate Amazing
LTC8K6
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I fail to see how adding a feature (namely, the ability to have a direct drive) can be construed as a negative. The electric motor is still capable of handling all driving conditions, unlike on the Prius. It's just that under some conditions there is a partial direct drive for efficiency reasons.

Also, the people whining about the "230 mpg" either never understood it in the first place, or don't appreciate the difficulty (especially when involving marketing decisions) in creating an efficiency number that's reflective of real driving conditions.

- Dr. Trintignant
 
LTC8K6 said:
The ICE can and does sometimes directly power the wheels on the Volt, contrary to what we have been told all along.

It's pretty much a Toyota Prius with a bigger battery, that you can plug in, with considerably worse highway fuel economy.
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Who told you what "all along"?

Volt is a hybrid which unlike Prius, can reach highway speed on battery alone, and can be plugged in. AFAIK, GM never claimed otherwise.
 
GM claimed frequently that the only reason there was a gas motor at all was to recharge the batteries, that it was an all electric vehicle that happened to have a gasoline powered generator to extend the range. That the gas engine will be tied to the drivetrain at all is contrary to their previous claims.
 
According to the article it only kicks in above 70 mph. From what I understand about electric motors, they're more efficient at the lower end of the speed range while ICEs are more efficient at higher speeds. To maximize efficiency, GM decided to have the ICE contribute at higher speeds. I don't see the scandal here. Would you prefer that they sacrifice efficiency?

Steve S
 
Mark6 said:
Who told you what "all along"?

Volt is a hybrid which unlike Prius, can reach highway speed on battery alone, and can be plugged in. AFAIK, GM never claimed otherwise.
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I haven't read both articles, but I think GM often claimed otherwise and tried to sell the Volt as completely different from a plug-in hybrid. They even coined a new vehicle class: Extended Range Electric Vehicle (EREV).

The engineering argument that it is more efficient to run directly from the engine in certain situations is more of an admission that the concept of the EREV was not as easily obtainable as they thought. Or that they weren't able to pull it off as well as they had hoped. Either way it is a bit different from what they promised.

Now, why does the car press care? First, they don't like being lied to. The 230 mpg wasn't a lie, but the "not a hybrid" thing sure smells bad.

Second, the promise of a small internal combustion engine (ICE) generator running only in its most efficient range to generate electricity to feed the range of an electric car is a very sexy engineering package. It is elegant and could develop into a modular system down the road with some real packaging advantages. The promise was a platform for future development that could incorporate more efficient batteries, more efficient generators, more efficient motors, different weight distribution requirements, and nearly unlimited different configurations.

Once the ICE is driving the wheels directly you lose the elegance and the packaging flexibility and end up with a $40,000 Prius made by GM that you can plug in.

But all is not lost. There is always the fear angle: so, now they'll sell it based on "range anxiety" instead of technology. That's nice.
 
It's like finding out someone used an artificial fertilizer in an otherwise organic farm. Not actually bad, just not in line with the purity of ideology promised.
 
IMST said:
It's like finding out someone used an artificial fertilizer in an otherwise organic farm. Not actually bad, just not in line with the purity of ideology promised.
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Yeah, but the promised tech had real advantages. It reminds me more of vapor ware.

The worst part is that I defended this boondoggle based on the promised technology.

No, the real worst part is the flimsy excuse for not coming clean earlier: our patent just issued so now we can tell you what it really does. That is total claptrap. For the most part, having the patent on file frees you to talk about the invention. There are some limited circumstances where talking about a patent pre-issuance would present problems, but none of them applied to this project.
 
Dr. Keith said:
The promise was a platform for future development that could incorporate more efficient batteries, more efficient generators, more efficient motors, different weight distribution requirements, and nearly unlimited different configurations.
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Who says all that still isn't true? The ICE link still isn't necessary for the functioning of the car; it just happens to be a more efficient choice for certain driving conditions. The car would still function normally without the link, and future refinements may well change the equation such that the link is no longer useful.

It's not even clear to me that the mechanical link was much of a cost at all. While I'm not an expert on the Volt's powertrain, it's entirely possible that the generator also triples as drive and starter motors. This is a sensible choice as it saves a great deal of weight. If true, then there is already a mechanical link between the ICE and wheels, and no need for the additional complexity of a transmission since we are talking about a single speed.

- Dr. Trintignant
 
Sounds to me, more like popular mythunderstandings built-up by science/technical reporters who (surprise, surprise) didn't bother with research and really understanding what was being said by the actual engineers and technicians on the project and then enthusiasts and advocates relying more upon PR and dubious popular press articles and being surprised and offended when these distorted impressions turn out to be,...well, distorted!
 
Leave it to GM to make a $41K copy of a$23K Prius...as a poster on another board said... :D

Why would anyone buy the Volt over the much cheaper Cruze or other fuel efficient cheaper car anyway?

You will never make up the extra money you pay for the Volt as far as I can see, so the purchase of the Volt will be a hip or trendy thing only.

Not that GM won't sell a bunch, mind you.

Looks like about $10K more than the Cruze after the rebates. The Cruze looks like a much better proposition to me.
 
LTC8K6 said:
Leave it to GM to make a $41K copy of a$23K Prius...as a poster on another board said... :D

Why would anyone buy the Volt over the much cheaper Cruze or other fuel efficient cheaper car anyway?

You will never make up the extra money you pay for the Volt as far as I can see, so the purchase of the Volt will be a hip or trendy thing only.

Not that GM won't sell a bunch, mind you.

Looks like about $10K more than the Cruze after the rebates. The Cruze looks like a much better proposition to me.
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I don't know that the initial version of the Volt was ever meant to be much more than PR and trendy.
 
LTC8K6 said:
Leave it to GM to make a $41K copy of a$23K Prius...as a poster on another board said... :D

Why would anyone buy the Volt over the much cheaper Cruze or other fuel efficient cheaper car anyway?

You will never make up the extra money you pay for the Volt as far as I can see, so the purchase of the Volt will be a hip or trendy thing only.

Not that GM won't sell a bunch, mind you.

Looks like about $10K more than the Cruze after the rebates. The Cruze looks like a much better proposition to me.
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Why do 90% of people buy cars that weren't a good investment for them? Who knows!

I do find it ironic when a lot of the brand&cylinder-count-loyal car folk complain about hybrid owners being "smug."

But the Cruze hopefully will be a big seller as well. Even though in 10 years we are all going to be buying either hybrids or fully electric cars.
 
daenku32 said:
Why do 90% of people buy cars that weren't a good investment for them? Who knows!

I do find it ironic when a lot of the brand&cylinder-count-loyal car folk complain about hybrid owners being "smug."

But the Cruze hopefully will be a big seller as well. Even though in 10 years we are all going to be buying either hybrids or fully electric cars.
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No car is a good investment. All are money pits.

If I need a new car, which money pit should I buy?

Should I buy a nice fuel efficient car like a Cruze or Focus, etc,?

Should I pay a lot more for a Volt?

Why would I buy the bigger money pit, except to be trendy? Assuming I can afford to be trendy in the first place.

Our grid will need massive upgrading to support everyone buying plug in cars within 10 years, and I don't even see grid updates or power plant updates beginning yet.
 
Personally, I don't understand why everyone is all excited about the idea of electric cars. The electricity still has to be generated somehow. In Canada, where a significant amount of our electricity is generated by hydroelectric systems, it might make sense. But in the USA, where the vast majority of all electric power is generated by burning coal...I'd prefer to keep the gasoline engines on the road.
 
I'm not sure how this is supposed to be a Prius. The Prius runs primarily on gasoline (as its ultimate source of power, I mean,) and uses the electric component as an assist. The Volt is the reverse, primarily powered by electricity from the electrical grid (which comes from coal anyway, but that's beside the point) and has gasoline as an assist.
 
jasonpatterson said:
I'm not sure how this is supposed to be a Prius. The Prius runs primarily on gasoline (as its ultimate source of power, I mean,) and uses the electric component as an assist. The Volt is the reverse, primarily powered by electricity from the electrical grid (which comes from coal anyway, but that's beside the point) and has gasoline as an assist.
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The Volt is primarily powered by a gasoline engine, actually. The battery is only good for 25-50 miles of grid provided power. Thereafter, most of the power comes from premium unleaded and the depleted battery assists on hills. :D

The engine cannot charge the battery beyond a safe lower limit of about 30%. The only way to fully charge the battery is to plug it in.
 
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Gr8wight said:
Personally, I don't understand why everyone is all excited about the idea of electric cars. The electricity still has to be generated somehow. In Canada, where a significant amount of our electricity is generated by hydroelectric systems, it might make sense. But in the USA, where the vast majority of all electric power is generated by burning coal...I'd prefer to keep the gasoline engines on the road.
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Because emissions on point sources (i.e., power plants) is one helluva lot better than on cars. Bottom line: fewer emissions per mile.
 
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