"True" Science vs Science - can you comment?

Donn

Philosopher
Joined
Sep 17, 2003
Messages
7,758
Location
In my head.
Hello again, tis I.
I hope this board does not get frustrated with me posting the stuff I receive in my email!
I am looking for comment and to learn from the way the logic is pulled apart.
I want to see the process of Skeptical Analysis being applied to this kind of writing.
I hope you enjoy this, it's typical of the stuff I am getting and I feel a little, well, spooked by it and I want to satisfy myself that my inner suspicion is that this is total bunk - only it's so slick and this chap is so very practised.
Here goes...
---------------------------
The Bigger Picture, etc:
Most people are very weary of conspiracy theorists, mostly because they are
very radical in their views and virtually always go against the 'accepted
norm'. In fact, most people have a kind of dismissal trigger that goes off
whenever they even hear the word 'conspiracy', with no help from the
conspiracy theorists here. From an informed perspective, most conspiracy
theorists who like to tackle things from a scientific perspective can be
proven wrong since they often tend to overlook other potential reasonable
explanations other than their often-narrow view of things. The views of
most conspiracy theorists can surely NOT be called 'balanced'.

I am no conspiracy theorist - as I prefer to include as many tangible facts
within my perceptual experience of something. I am NOT interested in plain
theories and conjecture without any tangible substance (that gets nobody
anywhere). Indeed, the Evidence is what matters. [Interestingly enough,
Evidence is subjective for most people... and quite so, the 'weight of
evidence' will vary from person-to-person and society-to-society; a concept
that is NOT too foreign in the practise of Law in all civilized cultures
around our planet]. For a Scientist, indeed, the measure of evidence should
be strict; however, it should NOT be so strict as to cause barriers within
the mind of the Scientist himself... at the very least, the Scientist should
be aware of this should he or she wish to make significant progress or any
great advance in his/her field of Science (and until Scientists stop
limiting Themselves, they will have to continue to rely upon most new
discoveries happening by 'accident').
At Heart, I am a Scientist and indeed I call myself a Scientist whether or
not I have a piece of paper to 'show for anything' (something that others
who call themselves scientists would prefer as a means of categorisation) as
it certainly is NOT the piece of paper that makes the Scientist (look up the
term in a dictionary). [Yes, the definition of a Scientist can be argued to
be a matter of semantics, however, unfortunately, it has also become an
issue of trust due to the lack of honour prevalent in our society.] Indeed
the Domain of Science truly isn't an exclusive field and no-one has a
monopoly over it, even though there are many today who actively present
themselves as 'scientists', when in actual fact they are monopolists who
seek dominion and control of True Science and 'superiority' over others
along with Their own generational dogma - today usually the ones shouting
the loudest about 'how right they are and how wrong some other Scientist
might be' or whom have the greatest on-going media exposure. As I have put
it before, to many-a-sceptic, today's 'Science' is NO better than a dogmatic
religion, along with all it's vices (if you don't believe me, just compare
some of the reactions of some of today's so-called 'scientists' to that of
fundamentalist religious fanatics when their belief-system is perceived to
be 'under attack')... this statement should also NOT be seen as a forthright
judgement over the many True Scientists among us today and the many True
Scientists that have in the past contributed to our society. Indeed, the
original meaning of the meaning of a Scientist is A Seeker of Truth.

A True Scientist Questions Everything and Dismisses Nothing (to believe that
his and other's perceptions of reality are perfect would be arrogant in the
extreme). How is it therefore that what many 'scientists' of today find
themselves dismissing many ideas and concepts MORE than accepting them as
possibility? How is this, I ask, different from a fundamental religious
fanatic going around calling everything that disagrees with his doctrine
"Evil!"?

It boils down to a fundamental matter of an attitude of Limitation verses
Limitlessness and Positivity verses Negativity. Which one do You chose?

Another bit of impetus as backing for what I say, for whatever it is worth
to you or anyone reading this, is the fact that, unlike the conspiracy
theorists, I have personally dealt with agents of some Illuminati groups;
both directly and indirectly and therefore have no question in my mind that
these organisations do indeed exist, and exist at the very highest levels of
government... because I have had a taste of just who these people are and
how they operate there are some things that I am aware of, and this also
connects to another aspect of what I am involved in, which if I had to go
around telling people I would be labelled delusional and paranoid. I am
neither, and let me tell you: Nothing compares to just how paranoid They
are, especially these days.
Yes, I am quite aware that there is INDEED a great manipulation of world
governments, medicine (I know several medical doctors who will agree with
me), science, educational institutions, world events, politics and
(especially) the media. Truth is NOT difficult to twist if one has the
power and 'seeming' authority to do so.
What amazes me is that most people know that 99% of politicians are
self-serving, dishonourable, power-hungry people who really don't have
anyone else's best interest except their own at heart; and yet they find it
difficult to believe that these same people (who are always wealthy) get
together and amongst themselves and other influential groups and do whatever
they can to strengthen and promote Their agendas? They certainly DO, and
yet sadly this is only the tip of the Iceberg...
Anyway, I am NOT here to prove anything to anyone or to make any specific
point! (unless there is a dire need for it or I am asked about my opinion,
in which case I will do what I can to convey it as clearly as possible).

Nobody can 'prove' anything to you unless you chose to prove it to yourself.

I do NOT know how anyone can call this World 'natural', 'normal' or
'healthy'. It has been very UNHEALTHY for a very long time...

Anyway, this is just my perspective... It wasn't supposed to turn into an
essay, like it almost did! ...and the Iceberg doesn't get any smaller.
 

At Heart, I am a Scientist and indeed I call myself a Scientist whether or
not I have a piece of paper to 'show for anything' (something that others
who call themselves scientists would prefer as a means of categorisation) as
it certainly is NOT the piece of paper that makes the Scientist (look up the
term in a dictionary). [Yes, the definition of a Scientist can be argued to
be a matter of semantics, however, unfortunately, it has also become an
issue of trust due to the lack of honour prevalent in our society.]

AaaaoooOOOOOgaaaaaa!
AaaaoooOOOOOgaaaaaa!

Quack alert.

Hey I'm very interested in science. I even got an undergrad degree in science, concentrating in physics.

I love science. But I am not a scientist.

I'm a "Science enthusiast."

I'm willing to bet I have a better grasp of science and the scientific method than this tool, and I'm certainly no damn scientist.

Calling youself a scientist does not make you a scientist any more than if I called myself a major league pitcher.

I love baseball too, does that mean Clemens and Prior are " monopolists who
seek dominion and control of baseball?"

No it means I'm NOT a major league pitcher because I don't know how to pitch, and even if i did, I have not demonstrated through disciplined hard work and repeated examples that I can.

You become a scientist by doing solid, evidence based scientific work, wether applied, theoretical, or clinical. Just philosophizing about science out of your a$$ does not a scientist make.

And pretty much after making such an asinine statement as that, I really can't be motivated to read any further.
 
Donn,
Why are you getting e-mails like this? Relative? Friend?

Evidence is subjective for most people... and quite so, the 'weight of
evidence' will vary from person-to-person and society-to-society;

Perhaps! Pretty vague. Wouldn't it depend on what we're talking about?

even though there are many today who actively present
themselves as 'scientists', when in actual fact they are monopolists who
seek dominion and control of True Science and 'superiority' over others
along with Their own generational dogma - today usually the ones shouting
the loudest about 'how right they are and how wrong some other Scientist
might be' or whom have the greatest on-going media exposure

This person as a very poor understanding of scientific philosophy!



'Science' is NO better than a dogmatic
religion,

Right out of the Fundamentalist Handbook.



How is it therefore that what many 'scientists' of today find
themselves dismissing many ideas and concepts MORE than accepting them as a possibility?

Because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


Positivity verses Negativity. Which one do You chose?

Irrelevent!


What amazes me is that most people know that 99% of politicians are
self-serving, dishonourable, power-hungry people who really don't have
anyone else's best interest except their own at heart; and yet they find it
difficult to believe that these same people (who are always wealthy) get
together and amongst themselves and other influential groups and do whatever
they can to strengthen and promote Their agendas? They certainly DO, and
yet sadly this is only the tip of the Iceberg...

Irrelevent to scientific philosophy. Opinion.


I am NOT here to prove anything to anyone or to make any specific
point!

I see that!
 
cbish said:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How is it therefore that what many 'scientists' of today find
themselves dismissing many ideas and concepts MORE than accepting them as a possibility?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Actually, a better response to this is because so many of these supposed "ideas and concepts" have long ago been dimissed in favor of hypothesis that are better consistent with what we know and see.

For example, to claim that scientists are "closed minded" to creationism is really stupid. For a long time, creationism was THE working model, until it became clear that the claims of creationism were totally inconsistent with what we knew about the world. Thus, it was abandoned in favor of a model that better explained the data.

That's not closed minded. That's progress.
 
Why are you getting e-mails like this? Relative? Friend?
He is an old school friend and I have recently (after 20 years) run into him again. It has actually been his wild notions that have spurred me to find sites like the JREF and Skepdic etc.

Before W (I don't want to use his name), I had no idea about the polarity of opinion regarding Science (and any other supposed 'known' topic).

So I have that much to thank him for.

Mainly he has been at me about NASA and the red/blue Mars business and I have put both feet solidly into the metaphysical doo-doo by trying to answer him. I have a thread in general skepticism and another started on Bad Astronomy (no answers yet) on the Mars subject - this post is more about his dogma.
 
We have had many discussions based on the proposal that Science is insufficient for investigating certain ideas or that it ignores certain possibilities because they are not ' mainstream '..


So far, proponents of those ideas have not been able to suggest how science might improve it's methods in this regard..

They seem to ignore the obvious, in that no one has more to gain by improving the scientific process, than scientists themselves...
 
He seems to suggest that "True Scientists" are somehow more honest, more open, more flexible, more creative than plain Scientists.

He does not say what methods these "True Scientists" use to get anything done.

Is a phrase like "True Scientist" similar to one like "Alternative Medicine"?
 
pgwenthold,
Agreed!:D

Donn wrote:
He is an old school friend and I have recently (after 20 years) run into him again. It has actually been his wild notions that have spurred me to find sites like the JREF and Skepdic etc.

I've had similar experiences. However with me, it was a co-worker.

Donn also wrote:
Is a phrase like "True Scientist" similar to one like "Alternative Medicine"?

Probably....or something along those lines. His approach definitely has a tone of mysticism. I have a friend who says the same type of stuff. It is clear to me from the post that your friend really has no idea what science is or how science works. The best thing you could do would be to educate him. That's what I've done with my friend. Explain details such as double-blind studies and the peer review process. Most people don't even know these things exist. To many, science is some diabolical scheme to defraud and deceive.
 
cbish said:
Probably....or something along those lines. His approach definitely has a tone of mysticism. I have a friend who says the same type of stuff. It is clear to me from the post that your friend really has no idea what science is or how science works. [/B]

I think this is just impossible to ascertain from what he's written. Same goes for the charge that he knows nothing about the philosophy of science.
 
Interesting Ian said:
I think this is just impossible to ascertain from what he's written. Same goes for the charge that he knows nothing about the philosophy of science.

The philosophy of science? And what would that be?
 
TLN said:


The philosophy of science? And what would that be?

It's a huge branch of philosophy. How does science progress? Do our scientific theories depict a literal state of affairs? What should govern our choice between mutually incompatible theories which adequately describe the same macroscopic state of affairs? Is there such a thing as a "scientific method" for generating new knowledge? etc

http://www.rep.routledge.com/article/Q120SECT2
 
Interesting Ian said:
It's a huge branch of philosophy.

But philosophy is not science, as much as you'd like it to be. And I aked you to answer the question, not the author of your link. You can answer the question, no?
 
TLN said:


But philosophy is not science, as much as you'd like it to be. And I aked you to answer the question, not the author of your link. You can answer the question, no?

Of course philosophy is not science. And I certainly would not like it to be! :eek: Philosophy is not about empirical investigations, but is all about reason and rationality and applying these to exam our presuppositions regarding the nature or character of reality, of knowledge, and of values. It has absolutely nothing to do with science.

And I did explain what the philosophy of science is. The link was simply an expansion. You can read many many books devoted entirely to the whole philosophy of science. Indeed you get many books entirely devoted to a small sub-branch of the philosophy of science. I simply gave a definition. Do your own exploring if you want to learn more.
 
TLN said:


I must have missed it. May I see it please?

It is concerned with such issues as:

How does science progress? Do our scientific theories depict a literal state of affairs? What should govern our choice between mutually incompatible theories which adequately describe the same macroscopic state of affairs? Is there such a thing as a "scientific method" for generating new knowledge? etc
 
Interesting Ian said:
How does science progress? Do our scientific theories depict a literal state of affairs? What should govern our choice between mutually incompatible theories which adequately describe the same macroscopic state of affairs? Is there such a thing as a "scientific method" for generating new knowledge? etc

A series of questions is not a definition.

What is the "philosophy of science?" If you don't know or can't summarize it in a sentence or two just say so.
 
Hi Ian,

I think this is just impossible to ascertain from what he's written. Same goes for the charge that he knows nothing about the philosophy of science.

I disagree! I think his post is abundantly clear that he has demonstrated this. If you have a true understanding of science and it's process then you can pick it apart.

How does science progress? Do our scientific theories depict a literal state of affairs? What should govern our choice between mutually incompatible theories which adequately describe the same macroscopic state of affairs? Is there such a thing as a "scientific method" for generating new knowledge?

Yes,? yet you also have to consider history (what has been eliminated in the past), degree of claim v. degree of evidence. This original posts says that science should consider all possibilities. I would think that you would agree this is a daunting task. Science has to consider pragmatic possibilties and even that is open to change. But again, the bigger the claim the bigger the proof.
 
cbish said:
Yes,? yet you also have to consider history (what has been eliminated in the past), degree of claim v. degree of evidence. This original posts says that science should consider all possibilities. I would think that you would agree this is a daunting task. Science has to consider pragmatic possibilties and even that is open to change. But again, the bigger the claim the bigger the proof.

Where does he state that science should consider all possibilities precisely? He certainly didn't seem to be saying that to me, although I really can't be bothered to read it again (I almost fell asleep the first time, despite, in the main, agreeing with him) At least I thought I agreed with him. I agree that science shouldn't consider all possibilities, but I repeat, where does he state this??

I would say that any hypothesis which appears to accommodate the empirical data of interest, and is not unduly at tension with current theories, should certainly be considered.
 
TLN said:


A series of questions is not a definition.



It certainly can tell you what something is about. The philosophy of science, and indeed philosophy as a whole, is not susceptible to a precise definition. One conveys what it means by referring to the type of questions it deals with.
 

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