True Conservatives, (And That Doesn't Include Limbaugh or Beck.)

[Roadtoad]

I'm sick of it. I tired of hearing about "conservatives" like Beck, Palin, Limbaugh, and their ilk. In all honesty, I don't think they understand the meaning of the word, and what it once meant. When I think of Conservative, I look more to my Grandfather, Thomas Dunn Watson, Jr., than I do anyone else. He understood what genuine Conservatism is really about than most of these folks, and he lived it for the most part.

There aren't many points to understand in what makes someone a Conservative, so the whole concept is pretty easy to grasp.

1.) A Conservative lives as though he doesn't need the laws.

This means pretty much what it says. You don't need speed limit laws, simply because you don't overdrive for the conditions. You don't need to be told not to discriminate, simply because you already know it's wrong. You don't dump filth into the nation's waterways, because you already know someone is going to wind up drinking the filth you dump into the water.

In other words, you consider the consequences of your actions before you act, the behave accordingly.

2.) A Conservative values merit above all else.

In other words, you have your position in life because you've earned it, not because you're given it. You make it by the sweat of your own brow, and you don't do it by taking from others, either through the courts or dishonest business practices.

Further, you don't discriminate on any basis; if someone isn't being promoted, it's because they're either lazy, incompetent, or both. It has nothing to do with race, creed, sexuality, religion, national origin. Work hard, do good work, and you move forward. That simple.

3.) A Conservative is truthful not only with others, but himself.

In short, a genuine Conservative is more interested in facts, and is working towards eliminating bias. It means being honest about your own actions, and not trying to mitigate the impact of them simply because it's convenient, or because it supports your so-called allies. It means you're going to base your actions on rationality, rather than emotion.

4.) A Conservative works towards the maximum benefit for the greatest number.

A Conservative is more interested in pluralism, and in the community, rather than his/her own pockets, in short because it also benefits him/herself. A golden parachute is nice, but if it comes to the detriment of the company -- and its employees -- what's the point?

By this definition, Al Dunlap, Rush Limbaugh's buddy, is not a conservative. Likewise, neither is Limbaugh. Sean Hannity? Not a chance. Ditto Beck, and his ties with a rather suspect gold trader. Something to consider.

Your thoughts?

 

[Howie Felterbush]

Well said.

My dad is a conservative and it always makes me bristle when people just assume he's exactly like Beck when in reality he would probably curb stomp Beck if given half a chance. He's a man that could have been the model for your post. He doesn't care who marries who or where you put your wee-wee.

 

[Upchurch]

Not that I particularly disagree. In fact, what you describe is much more what I consider conservatives when I thought of conservatives as something to admire.

But when defining one half of a dichotomy, the definition is incomplete without defining what it is not. What distinguishes, in this kind of conservative from a liberal?

 

[Brown]

I sympathize with this. I used to consider myself somewhat conservative (although others might have deemed me liberal in some respects), but now I do not feel that I can use the word "conservative" to describe myself. The so-called "conservative" talking heads and "leaders" have poisoned the label.

The word used to mean that one tended to favor not making a change unless there was a good reason to make it. Generally speaking, the more extreme the change, the more compelling the reason had to be. A conservative tended to be less risk-averse, because a conservative did not want to jeopardize losing what is good. A conservative did not oppose all change, because doing so would be the height of folly. Things will change whether people want them to or not. A conservative would strive for prudent and reasoned responses to changes.

That is not what the term means today.

Today's "conservatives" play to people's stupidity (as well as their racism and bad urges), engage in shameless hypocrisy, promote ghastly fear-mongering and unrealistic scenarios as factual, encourage cliquishness and cronyism, and behave as though "the end justifies the means." None of these is a conservative principle.

 

[Roadtoad]

Not that I particularly disagree. In fact, what you describe is much more what I consider conservatives when I thought of conservatives as something to admire.

But when defining one half of a dichotomy, the definition is incomplete without defining what it is not. What distinguishes, in this kind of conservative from a liberal?

Hard to say. What I've noticed is that most Liberals tend to be far more focused on what role the community plays in the lives of individuals, (hence, the reason most Liberals tend to support such things as governmental social programs, where most Conservatives would rather see that handled by private organizations.) That would be my first point of departure.

 

[GodMark2]

There aren't many points to understand in what makes someone a Liberal, so the whole concept is pretty easy to grasp.

1.) A Liberal lives as though he doesn't need the laws.

This means pretty much what it says. You don't need speed limit laws, simply because you don't overdrive for the conditions. You don't need to be told not to discriminate, simply because you already know it's wrong. You don't dump filth into the nation's waterways, because you already know someone is going to wind up drinking the filth you dump into the water.

In other words, you consider the consequences of your actions before you act, the behave accordingly.

2.) A Liberal values merit above all else.

In other words, you have your position in life because you've earned it, not because you're given it. You make it by the sweat of your own brow, and you don't do it by taking from others, either through the courts or dishonest business practices.

Further, you don't discriminate on any basis; if someone isn't being promoted, it's because they're either lazy, incompetent, or both. It has nothing to do with race, creed, sexuality, religion, national origin. Work hard, do good work, and you move forward. That simple.

3.) A Liberal is truthful not only with others, but himself.

In short, a genuine Liberal is more interested in facts, and is working towards eliminating bias. It means being honest about your own actions, and not trying to mitigate the impact of them simply because it's convenient, or because it supports your so-called allies. It means you're going to base your actions on rationality, rather than emotion.

4.) A Liberal works towards the maximum benefit for the greatest number.

A Liberal is more interested in pluralism, and in the community, rather than his/her own pockets, in short because it also benefits him/herself. A golden parachute is nice, but if it comes to the detriment of the company -- and its employees -- what's the point?

I suspect most self-identifying Conservatives would agree with your version, and most self-identifying Liberals would agree with mine. Simply put, none of these things are inherently Conservative or Liberal, they're just ideals people like to see in themselves (regardless of whether or not they actually embody these ideals).

 

[Roadtoad]

There aren't many points to understand in what makes someone a Liberal, so the whole concept is pretty easy to grasp.

1.) A Liberal lives as though he doesn't need the laws.

This means pretty much what it says. You don't need speed limit laws, simply because you don't overdrive for the conditions. You don't need to be told not to discriminate, simply because you already know it's wrong. You don't dump filth into the nation's waterways, because you already know someone is going to wind up drinking the filth you dump into the water.

In other words, you consider the consequences of your actions before you act, the behave accordingly.

2.) A Liberal values merit above all else.

In other words, you have your position in life because you've earned it, not because you're given it. You make it by the sweat of your own brow, and you don't do it by taking from others, either through the courts or dishonest business practices.

Further, you don't discriminate on any basis; if someone isn't being promoted, it's because they're either lazy, incompetent, or both. It has nothing to do with race, creed, sexuality, religion, national origin. Work hard, do good work, and you move forward. That simple.

3.) A Liberal is truthful not only with others, but himself.

In short, a genuine Liberal is more interested in facts, and is working towards eliminating bias. It means being honest about your own actions, and not trying to mitigate the impact of them simply because it's convenient, or because it supports your so-called allies. It means you're going to base your actions on rationality, rather than emotion.

4.) A Liberal works towards the maximum benefit for the greatest number.

A Liberal is more interested in pluralism, and in the community, rather than his/her own pockets, in short because it also benefits him/herself. A golden parachute is nice, but if it comes to the detriment of the company -- and its employees -- what's the point?

I suspect most self-identifying Conservatives would agree with your version, and most self-identifying Liberals would agree with mine. Simply put, none of these things are inherently Conservative or Liberal, they're just ideals people like to see in themselves (regardless of whether or not they actually embody these ideals).

By George, I think you've got it.

 

[Brown]

Although the comparison, is not perfect, today's "conservatives" remind me of the old Soviet Union. Remember these guys?

They had a news source, which many people in the West realized included excessive doses of crap and propaganda. They insisted upon blind adherence to political principles, even if those principles were foolish. They purged leaders who did not do as they wished. They made bombastic statements filled with empty rhetoric. They rattled their sabres regularly and talked tough, even sending in the troops to teach others a lesson. They did not like dissent, not one little bit. They came down hard on criminals, and locked up radicals upon the flimisest of cases, or no case at all. They made sure that those few who held the power kept it at all costs, regardless of what the people as a whole wanted.

And incredibly, "conservatives" actually made fun of the Soviets for doing this. Yet today, "conservatives" seem to be following in their footsteps....

 

[Roadtoad]

Although the comparison, is not perfect, today's "conservatives" remind me of the old Soviet Union. Remember these guys?

They had a news source, which many people in the West realized included excessive doses of crap and propaganda. They insisted upon blind adherence to political principles, even if those principles were foolish. They purged leaders who did not do as they wished. They made bombastic statements filled with empty rhetoric. They rattled their sabres regularly and talked tough, even sending in the troops to teach others a lesson. They did not like dissent, not one little bit. They came down hard on criminals, and locked up radicals upon the flimisest of cases, or no case at all. They made sure that those few who held the power kept it at all costs, regardless of what the people as a whole wanted.

And incredibly, "conservatives" actually made fun of the Soviets for doing this. Yet today, "conservatives" seem to be following in their footsteps....

And, sadly, that sounds like a lot of "liberals."

I don't see much difference between the two when we're dealing with the real deal. I see a hell of a lot of difference once you start pressing out the fringes. (And, frankly, I'm sick of Fat Boy and his pontification, especially when it comes to such things as drugs and alcohol.)

 

[Ladewig]

You don't dump filth into the nation's waterways, because you already know someone is going to wind up drinking the filth you dump into the water.

Do you think the percentage of true liberals who don't dump waste into the nation's waterways because they know it is wrong is different from the percentage of true conservatives who don't dump waste because they know it is wrong?

 

[Roadtoad]

Do you think the percentage of true liberals who don't dump waste into the nation's waterways because they know it is wrong is different from the percentage of true conservatives who don't dump waste because they know it is wrong?

Nope.

And, I think that's the point. Not too much difference between the real deal on either side.

It's when you start dropping power into the mix, and the potential profits that the extremism kicks in, and winds up destroying consensus. There's little difference between Brown and myself on a number of issues, but where we'd begin our approach is very different indeed.

And to another point on that: Brown and I, or anyone else on this board of this same mindset, (noticed this a lot with Upchurch, which is why I respect him), when we're wrong, we admit it. Most of the whack-jobs can't.

 

[Piscivore]

And, sadly, that sounds like a lot of "liberals."

It sounds like a lot of partisans. As far as I'm concerned, politically, if one has a set of principles and values that guides their thinking it shouldn't matter what "side" anyone else is on if they share the same values, but as soon as someone identifies more with a "side" instead of a set of principles, they've checked their brain at the door. *cough*cough* Cicero *hack* BeAChooser *cough*cough*

I don't see much difference between the two when we're dealing with the real deal.

There isn't. It's just two small groups of people grubbing for the power to make others do things their way (in other words, get more of the money for them and theirs) and a whole bunch of others trying to feed off the scraps. All the "issues" they pretend to care about is just smoke and mirrors.

I see a hell of a lot of difference once you start pressing out the fringes.

In what way?

 

[Howie Felterbush]

It sounds like a lot of partisans. As far as I'm concerned, politically, if one has a set of principles and values that guides their thinking it shouldn't matter what "side" anyone else is on if they share the same values, but as soon as someone identifies more with a "side" instead of a set of principles, they've checked their brain at the door. *cough*cough* Cicero *hack* BeAChooser *cough*cough*

In all fairness *cough*cough*leftysergeant*hack* It ain't just the right that acts like that.

There's nutjobs on both sides that make their entire side look like lunatics.

 

[Piscivore]

In all fairness *cough*cough*leftysergeant*hack* It ain't just the right that acts like that.

There's nutjobs on both sides that make their entire side look like lunatics.

Unquestionably. Read my post again- "sides" are inherently stupid. It's choosing an easy, prepared answer over thinking.

 

[Thunder]

how is a true conservative different than a true libertarian?

 

[Roadtoad]

how is a true conservative different than a true libertarian?

Short answer: Brooks Brothers.

 

[Howie Felterbush]

how is a true conservative different than a true libertarian?

True conservatives don't care if you don't like them, true libertarians want to make sure you don't like them.

 

[Thunder]

um...Conservatives want to "conserve" traditions and culture, while Libertarians couldn't give rat's ass and just want to be left alone?

seems to me that TRUE Conservatism and Libertarianism are at odds over more than a few things.

 

[BenBurch]

I'm sick of it. I tired of hearing about "conservatives" like Beck, Palin, Limbaugh, and their ilk. In all honesty, I don't think they understand the meaning of the word, and what it once meant. When I think of Conservative, I look more to my Grandfather, Thomas Dunn Watson, Jr., than I do anyone else. He understood what genuine Conservatism is really about than most of these folks, and he lived it for the most part.

There aren't many points to understand in what makes someone a Conservative, so the whole concept is pretty easy to grasp.

1.) A Conservative lives as though he doesn't need the laws.

This means pretty much what it says. You don't need speed limit laws, simply because you don't overdrive for the conditions. You don't need to be told not to discriminate, simply because you already know it's wrong. You don't dump filth into the nation's waterways, because you already know someone is going to wind up drinking the filth you dump into the water.

In other words, you consider the consequences of your actions before you act, the behave accordingly.

2.) A Conservative values merit above all else.

In other words, you have your position in life because you've earned it, not because you're given it. You make it by the sweat of your own brow, and you don't do it by taking from others, either through the courts or dishonest business practices.

Further, you don't discriminate on any basis; if someone isn't being promoted, it's because they're either lazy, incompetent, or both. It has nothing to do with race, creed, sexuality, religion, national origin. Work hard, do good work, and you move forward. That simple.

3.) A Conservative is truthful not only with others, but himself.

In short, a genuine Conservative is more interested in facts, and is working towards eliminating bias. It means being honest about your own actions, and not trying to mitigate the impact of them simply because it's convenient, or because it supports your so-called allies. It means you're going to base your actions on rationality, rather than emotion.

4.) A Conservative works towards the maximum benefit for the greatest number.

A Conservative is more interested in pluralism, and in the community, rather than his/her own pockets, in short because it also benefits him/herself. A golden parachute is nice, but if it comes to the detriment of the company -- and its employees -- what's the point?

By this definition, Al Dunlap, Rush Limbaugh's buddy, is not a conservative. Likewise, neither is Limbaugh. Sean Hannity? Not a chance. Ditto Beck, and his ties with a rather suspect gold trader. Something to consider.

Your thoughts?

I'd call myself one if they could conform to this.

 

[Tricky]

I'm sick of it. I tired of hearing about "conservatives" like Beck, Palin, Limbaugh, and their ilk. In all honesty, I don't think they understand the meaning of the word, and what it once meant. When I think of Conservative, I look more to my Grandfather, Thomas Dunn Watson, Jr., than I do anyone else. He understood what genuine Conservatism is really about than most of these folks, and he lived it for the most part.

There aren't many points to understand in what makes someone a Conservative, so the whole concept is pretty easy to grasp.

1.) A Conservative lives as though he doesn't need the laws.

This means pretty much what it says. You don't need speed limit laws, simply because you don't overdrive for the conditions. You don't need to be told not to discriminate, simply because you already know it's wrong. You don't dump filth into the nation's waterways, because you already know someone is going to wind up drinking the filth you dump into the water.

In other words, you consider the consequences of your actions before you act, the behave accordingly.

2.) A Conservative values merit above all else.

In other words, you have your position in life because you've earned it, not because you're given it. You make it by the sweat of your own brow, and you don't do it by taking from others, either through the courts or dishonest business practices.

Further, you don't discriminate on any basis; if someone isn't being promoted, it's because they're either lazy, incompetent, or both. It has nothing to do with race, creed, sexuality, religion, national origin. Work hard, do good work, and you move forward. That simple.

3.) A Conservative is truthful not only with others, but himself.

In short, a genuine Conservative is more interested in facts, and is working towards eliminating bias. It means being honest about your own actions, and not trying to mitigate the impact of them simply because it's convenient, or because it supports your so-called allies. It means you're going to base your actions on rationality, rather than emotion.

4.) A Conservative works towards the maximum benefit for the greatest number.

A Conservative is more interested in pluralism, and in the community, rather than his/her own pockets, in short because it also benefits him/herself. A golden parachute is nice, but if it comes to the detriment of the company -- and its employees -- what's the point?

By this definition, Al Dunlap, Rush Limbaugh's buddy, is not a conservative. Likewise, neither is Limbaugh. Sean Hannity? Not a chance. Ditto Beck, and his ties with a rather suspect gold trader. Something to consider.

Your thoughts?

A lot of what you say is what both sides say about themselves. But things like "Maximum benefit for the greatest number" sounds curiously like socialism, and while I agree that caring people of any party or philosophy think that is what they are doing, that is not a thing to be said out loud in many conservative circles.

Still, I wish there were more conservatives like you.